Marketing Against The Grain

everyone we're joined by mike fo today and he is a amazing expert at vibe coding apps for marketing and taking the pain out of your marketing that redundant manual work that you have to do that you hate he's gonna show you how to get rid of it and we're gonna walk through a whole app he's built we're gonna show you how to do better tiktok and facebook ads it's gonna be awesome let's get to today's show before we continue let me tell you about a podcast i love marketing school marketing legends neil patel and eric sue bring you daily actionable digital marketing lessons learned from years in the trenches marketing school delivers bite sized marketing wisdom you can implement immediately whether you have a new website or you're an established business you'll learn the latest in seo content marketing social media email marketing conversion optimization and general online marketing strategies that work today they just did a great episode called ten seo lessons that still work in the ai era listen to marketing school wherever you get your podcast like i'm very excited to have you on the show today i first discovered you on twitter because you'd built a really cool like instagram trend research tool that i had found and we were in the middle of hubspot of kind of rebuilding how we do social and social organic and ads and i was like oh this is awesome like this is the kind of work that marketing has to do in this new modern post ai world and so i was like let's get them on the show and like break it down and you know talk about that but also just talk about you know the modern state of ai and building for marketing in general but you know i think where we first connected was around so many marketers are doing manual trend spotting manual research and social still feels kinda clunky and old school especially and like you've been doing a bunch of work to kinda fix that i'd love to hear how you've been doing that like what you've been building and everything there hey thanks a lot for having me on kip i'm happy to get into this and yeah the specific use case i think we're gonna talk about today as you said is scraping social media or searching social media for kind of trending topics in certain niches and you know having ai not only find that content for us like going out and and scraping tiktok for example but also having ai analyze the videos right as you know gemini now watch actual videos so can we build a workflow or an internal tool or a system that teams can use where instead of you know having an employee literally go out on tiktok and kind of scroll the feed and find trending videos and take notes can we automate some of that process and so this is a good use case at least you know the people that i work with are e commerce brands who are running their own ad or facebook ad agencies that wanna find you know what's popping on tiktok right tiktok usually the place where stuff goes viral first yeah so can they tap into those angles those hooks those topics because you gonna don't wanna use those for ads right you might wanna use them for content on reels or youtube shorts or whatever and so if you can kinda get the leading edge you can then leverage it for your company and do a very fast follow on all that is that right exactly they usually use it in ads right so fine find what's popping on organic and then quickly test it as an ad right because the big thing in facebook ads right now is create a volume testing new hooks testing new angles putting out a lot of ads and that's kind of how this was born out of a client that i was working with who was trying to automate the painful process of finding videos on tiktok show us what you're talking about here so that everybody can understand what we mean by i say like really finding these trends and acting on them really quickly yeah alright so this is the evolved version of this tool it started in na n this is kind of version two which is the vibe coded cloud code version so i i kind of vibe code this but just to demo how it works right so say your a brand like ag g one okay and and you want find you know topics that are popping on tiktok around the keyword of gut health right mh so we can type in a keyword over here we can search a date range like how far back do we wanna scroll or search on tiktok we can set the number of results we'll do twenty hopefully it doesn't take too long and then we're just gonna click on find trending video so what this is doing effectively in the background not to get too technical but it it's using ap amplify which is a scraper so it's calling the app amplify api it's going out to tiktok you can see it already pulled in the results nice and so ap amplify is giving us this data and and now we're kind of displaying it in a way that's helpful to the use right so went out it found twenty videos about gut health and a high level we can see all of the views and all of the metrics right so this video got thirty eight million views four million likes thirty three thousand comments and you can search for hundreds and hundreds of videos if you want i kept it a smaller search here you know if you see something that looks interesting maybe for your brand or something that you might wanna run and there's a a couple of steps that we can go from here so number one if this video has a transcript it will pull in the actual transcripts from the video and we can also analyze this with ai so when i click on that button what it's gonna do is send this to gemini and you know based on the prompts that i have going in the background it's gonna pull out a couple of elements depending on how long this video is you know what's happening in the video what's the hook what's the messaging what's the angle are they addressing any pain points those kind of things alright mike gave us his insights and we turned it into a playbook with over five ai workflows and fifteen prompts that automate everything from scraping trending content on tiktok instagram and youtube to generating creative brief no more manual scrolling for hooks and angles ai will do the research for you get it right now click the link in the description now let's get back to the show alright so you can see gemini and i came back pretty quickly and it's giving us things that marketers want to know about videos is if they wanna you know put out an add about this right so we've got the visual hook right the video opens with them quotes up unfiltered view of the creators at the prone skin what was demonstrated in the video usually a product that shows that you know this problem was solved so it's pulling in kind of that angle what's the theme of the video what's the funnel stage right this is identifying it as a middle of funnel now all of this obviously can be customized right this is just a prompt on the back end to gemini and were asking gemini and hey pulling these four things but if you're running this internally as a tool and you wanna look at other elements of a video like if your team were to manually analyze a tiktok video what do you want it to pull out you can just tell gemini and the results will be different for this video it's just those four things and then i also can analyze which i think is really helpful the comments right there's a lot of gold in the comments especially when we're talking about products what questions are the comment asking about your competitors product what are they complaining about you know what are the things that they like about right so it's also pulling in the comment questions right how do you make the ginger shots with chill water and then it's also you know giving some key insights right users strongly believe in the gut skin connection and so again this is just one example of how we can structure gemini to pull insights from the video and from the comments so what i think is very interesting about this mike and i want people who may not be in the weeds of this as something like you or me is that it's not just hey it's pulling some information it's like you are an expert and what makes in this case these types of video successful because you're working with companies doing this all the time and so it's a very point of view driven research process of like this is exactly the things you should care about the things you should know and i think that's part of the modern ai process it's like how do you scale expertise so instead of having somebody like you having to scroll through videos for hours and kinda and annotate all this manually you can basically scale what you think is the optimal process just for you in doing all of this and make it really clear and accessible what you actually care about and then potentially i'm sure we'll talk about a second what you actually do with this information to actually get real value yeah now that's a great segue because you know the version one of this build when i was kind of just building it was alright we can scrape all the data right we got all the views all the lights all of the comments alright that's kind of like layer one layer two is what's on happening in the video where i we've got the hook and the theme and all that stuff and then you know what do we do with this and this is what clients ask for we're doing research but the output that we want our new assets right new ads and that generally comes from creating a creative brief right that you're gonna send to your creative team or to your ad team and so i built in this button here which is generate brief and i have kind of ag one in here as a demo brand just a demo of course it's a big consumer products brand lots of people know it so it's like a great example to use yeah but what it's doing is it's gonna pull in like a brand bible that i gave ag one you know customer pain points yeah what's the brand about like background about the brand and the audience right so that's context and i can click generate brief and hopefully it will generate a a dummy brief template right yeah and then from here you know whoever's running the ad team can obviously edit this but now we've gone from research to brief in a matter of minutes like literally a matter of minute karen and i have this thing called a taste profile that we use but it's essentially that right it's all the data and information on your customers and what they are looking for and then also what's your brand style what's your brand voice all of those matching them together once you have that which is basically what you've given yeah you know this agent in the background you can generate a pretty accurate brief and we're gonna take a look at it right now yeah so here is the brief that it generated you know we've got a campaign name an objective right so drive website traffic and increase new monthly subscriptions target audience the educated google right they've seen diy wellness trends on platforms like tiktok and believe in the core principle but are frustrated by the confusing preparation conflicting advice and negative side effects of these homemade remedies they're looking for a reliable all in one upgrade right and then it gets into the pain points and then this is just a template brief that i'd fed the system on the back end yeah right but it gets into the key message right stop the diy guess work ag one is the simple science foundation for the gut health that supports clear skin yada yada yada right and again but whoever is using this tool can put in a template of their own like what create a brief template correct do a news and the ai will use that as the template to then fill in the blanks so to speak on what you provided right so this is kind of like the net output and this is what teams want right they want more brief so they can create more ads and now they can have ai speed it up very quickly but it's also based on real data right it's based on videos that are actually doing well on tiktok yeah well but i think it's really cool about this mike is that it's the perfect marriage of what ai is great at what ai is great is taking all this unstructured data yeah in this case some information from tiktok videos and on the other side the information about the company and the promise try solve and match it together they to say hey this is probably what you should do and that's literally what most marketers are looking for they're looking for some clarity of strategy and clarity of focus so they can go and run that down and start executing it and i imagine what you find is a huge speed up in acceleration in your ability to like ship work out exactly because you get to that point of clarity really really quickly and i'm sure that any human looking at this brief probably makes a few tweaks disagrees with a few things yeah right and but then it's like it's like eighty in the way there i made some changes and now it's time to go yeah and i think it's the team members working with ai as kind of like a side kick or a side colleague that it can speed up the process maybe get you eighty percent of the way there of course the human is definitely needed to put the finishing touches on this and and make sure that it makes sense but just equip your team with certain tools or workflows they can just make their job easier and allow them to just have more output especially in the ad game you know i'm not a a facebook ad person but the the clients that i work with are all about running ads yep and you know i've heard from them is creative volume with like the meta algorithms is like the number one thing that that meta is looking for right net new concepts as they call it and so this is just one part of the process to be clear they also actually need to create the ads and you know ai can help with that with static ads potential video as well and so you know they're using ai all along the process this is just the beginning but yeah we're talking about like the ad strategy right right and basically here in like sub fifteen minutes you've gone from nothing to an ad strategy mh and then it just depends on the size and scale of your company and your product whether you have some automated workflows to generate those ads you've got a creative team what have you but like we've gone from hey we know we have a certain velocity of add campaigns we need to run to keep our metrics high and this is allowing us to do that at the level we need it yeah if you were running this for clients right you could have you know multiple projects for clients this is what i was talking about the template that i gave it gemini and i wrote this for me and then like the brand bible tone of voice with the brand what are the target audience what are their pain points and as you said ai does a really good job of just layering on contact right arguably you could have another section here that says you know what does a winning ad look like for our company based on our historical data running ads yes so that's another piece of context right throwing all of the context at gemini it can watch the video we can take all of this and it can just s it into an output very quickly i think is like the big thing yeah i mean i i think you're right i think we're telling people practically what to do here is like you would take the output of this brief you would match it with past campaign data you'd give that to jim and i or claude or someone let them basically match those two things together to say oh here's some conceptual ideas to build and test and then you could put that into we or nana banana v or depending on what type of ad format you needed to be to actually get a first rev of the ad creative itself correct and i mean there are people who are very ambitious who want to you know go even for right they wanna automate that part from you know i mean so there's you're part one but they're like what can you do for me next how how do i actually get static ad image from the brief right and so if you were truly building out a real solution you could potentially think about that alright this is phase one alright this looks good how do you tie this into nano banana so i can get twenty static variations that we can quickly test all as one workflow or one tool yeah and i guess the question i'd ask for the audience here is as somebody going through a workflow in this case we're talking about ads it could be almost any part of marketing yeah like how do i determine where to draw that line of automation versus like hey i the person really need to be deeply involved here because this has gotta really be right and i don't think i could automate it you know i think at least the the teams that i work with and anything that is text based meaning research right deep research it it's very good at that writing you know brief writing first draft ads all of that can be automated very well at these point with certain tools like ada or if you're building a custom solution inside of cloud code so like research writing written content as i would call it right ai is just unbelievably good at that especially research like if you think about like if you're kicking on ag one as a brand new client and you need to do a deep dive into their brand their customer reviews pain points like what are the comments left under their videos like that manual process is like a huge job to do ai is really good at the research pulling in ideas dis instill those ideas into whatever format you want where i would caution you know automating certain things is when you get into the more creative side of especially video yes yeah i can't tell you how many people come to me and they want an automated way to create ai u gc videos for whatever reason you know maybe maybe it ads maybe it's tiktok maybe it's tiktok shop because ai video you know depending on what use case is it's coming right and those videos are getting very good you you're gotta get a much we're getting very good and you know if you're running ads or you're doing to talk shop people are interested in alright i wanna experiment with ai video can you build be something that automate two hundred ai videos like that is not something that i would do and i it's frankly i just tell people like the quality is is gonna be terrible you can set up a system that will automate ai video but is that output gonna be good is gonna be a good reflection on your brand right now i the answer that i would say is no so i think it's very hard without a human being yeah deeply involved in doing some very clear instruction and prompting yes for that video generation and really revving on it because i think what you and i probably also learned that it takes a bunch of rev that initial first or second shot isn't that great but you have to do a few rev and then the other thing i tell the audience and remind the audience it's like ai is really good at like getting you to the mean getting you to like what average looks like in marketing it's about devi from the mean and how you actually stand out and that's where humans are so so important and yeah experience and creativity really really kick in yeah especially as you said with like with the video even if you're manually doing it in a tool not automating it may like manually at your desk you're gonna get bad output like yes guaranteed right and so if you're gonna try to throw an automation layer on top of bad output that's just a recipe for disaster like you're gonna spend a lot of money as gonna say it's gonna be expensive to you right like we can build the system we can build the engine like it's possible to automate ai video but is it gonna be good ninety nine percent of time at least right now you know talk to us in six months but that's something as you said you you definitely need that human and even if it was good it's it's only gonna be good if it's like this very very very focused use case yeah like do you have all of the context humanly possible and even then you're gonna get randomly bad output and i think that's what's hard and i'm with you we as we get more gpu capacity and everything online and the video models get better this will all be easier but the reality is the making of the videos and stuff that's kind of the fun part a lot of the part we're talking about automating today that's actually the painful part right yeah i mean the video creation like it's as you said that's is the fun part like iterating learning and this is a good prompt this is a bad prompts anytime you're gonna try to automate that as you said it's gonna be expensive it's it's and you're just gonna get terrible outputs you you'd be surprised that people who want this type of solution but to me at least it's not something that i would build right and so that what we got you for the last couple minutes of the show here mike as we're thinking about the buzz word ai agents and like building kind of workflows and agents to do custom parts of marketing first of all what should people be thinking about maybe building for themselves to to do marketing really well today and then i'd love to hear a little bit more of like also like the way in which you build these things because people i'm sure and the comments are gonna have a ton of questions around that i think so there's huge ai agent hype going on right now i don't know how closely you follow the whole law thing oh mo book is crazy we talk i i have i have some crazy open call ideas that i wanna work on setting up so have you been a future show for everybody i mean listen i you know consider myself pretty plugged into the maybe maybe not as much as some people who go absolutely crazy i don't know i i don't wanna say bad things about it i i struggle where we stand today to see the actual value like real business value out of these you know open call type let's call it ai agents from what i've seen and i've watched a lot of videos and i'm on x pretty frequently it's like you send a telegram and maybe it can like book a dinner reservation but it's your security all of your api keys are leaked and it takes like six hours to do it i don't know so you know i i think there is a big distinction between like an ai agent which is a very hot thing right now and what i you know an ai automation right which is more right it's like we we have certain steps that we want the ai to do and it will execute that in order right so it's not an agent meaning it's not making its own decisions but it's following certain steps so this was the initial tiktok scraper right before i built it in cloud code and made it like a web app sort of thing i built it in na n which you know is is a workflow ai automation mh older and this is what that tool looks like under the hood what i originally built this and an it but this is not you know what you would call an ai agent of this is a workflow tool i would say it's a technical workflow tool yeah you're not just rolling in out of bed and being like hey you know i'm gonna make a thirty node workflow in n eight n you gotta be fairly technical and proficient on that yeah for the audience mike how much time did you spend on and n learning before you really thought like you could build something of meaning you think oh it's a great question because when i first started with let's call it ai automation i was terrified of any then because i'm not a code terrified of it right and there there's other versions of this that make less scary and i was using those tools because i don't wanna deal with api t's i didn't wanna deal with web hooks like i do not from a background of this and so to to answer your question i avoided na n even though i was building these things i was using other tools avoid n and end for at least three to four months but then had a huge moment where it's like listen if you gonna do ai automation you need to know how to use this tool it it took me i don't know four months of like truly building these types of flows and this is with the help by the way of chat or claude in my other browser because i still don't know how to code like i didn't rip that like claude wrote this and then you know we did some debugging and it finally worked but you're right n na nine is not something that you're you know with average marketer will learn or needs to know how to learn but i do think the next step from this is like vibe coding in a tool like claude which i think is actually easier i think it's ways here i'm with you on that and then na at right as i said na had a huge moment i think there's like a turning point going on right now where you know is this really the future of building ai like these sc little nodes on a thing probably not in my opinion it probably is something like cloud code where your average user can potentially learn to vibe code a solution that you know your team can use internally that's actually valuable and useful yeah so your point is like if you're hardcore is powerful and can be valuable yeah but if you're just a marketer and you're like hey i'm just sick of doing a bunch of manual stuff that i have to do that i think there's a better way and then it's like hey let me vibe coat of tooling and cloth and then if it is helpful maybe i work with somebody like you or somebody else to build a more perm person or maybe if there's a great like off the shelf agent product out there right that i can use and there's kind of like a hierarchy of how you wanna solve that problem it seems like yeah you're not gonna go messing around in this even if you start with something like a quad project or now they're claude c and pop keep up with all the clog updates you know something that you're doing repeatedly has a chance to be automated and and you know especially if you're taking a lot of time and you're literally doing the same thing over and over and over again where is that line can it be solved with a cloud project with a bunch of context files maybe right now we've got claude skills which are kind of just you know pre prompts that you can call or do you need to you know actually vibe code some kind of tool it really depends on your use case this is also mike where i i think we'd be remiss food call out reminder that jim and i can consume videos up to an hour long google jim and so if you don't know you can literally just record yourself doing something you hate like you could literally just say this is the thing i hate most about my job i'm gonna record myself doing it for an hour and ask jim and i what you can do to not have to do that thing you hate anywhere is it an hour i didn't even yeah it's an hour it can watch videos up to an hour long so it'll just watch and break down on everything and then reason through what you can do that's insane i didn't realize it was that long i should do a whole show on that my maybe i need to do like a workflow recording and do that whole that sounds like a great use case because i don't think many people even know that gemini and i can literally feed the video it'll analyze the video it'll output all of your steps and then give you an idea for hey this is what you can automate and exactly well here's how you can potentially build this if you wanna think about building it but using ai to help you build with ai totally it's how i've gotten here well yeah i think your story is an important story it's like you're not a web developer you're not somebody who writes sun code somebody who's curious and has taught themselves how to build to solve problems that you have like business domain and expertise in right and i think one of the reasons we do the show is because we wanna power a lot of people to go and do that and because it is now possible in a way that it never was before yeah for shit i think the business use case is actually a very important point and you know i i kind of started generally just sharing on twitter just broad ai stuff broad ai automation and then i don't know what maybe it was like a tiktok thing that i did but like the e commerce people started reaching out to me then that's kind of now my use case but you're totally right like understanding the business case like what pain points do they have will help you build these solutions a lot easier because you understand what they're actually trying to do alright as we're closing out the show mike any last advice you give for somebody who might be you know you twelve months ago you eighteen months ago what would you tell people to baby save some time and compact that learning that you've done in a shorter period of time so i think whether it's cloud code or codecs i would actually start there right i i would not do na and i would not do mate dot com or zapier i would start learning how to build something very simple like just call an api right like your first api call and i literally have two monitors i have claude coding one and then just regular claude right could just copy and paste certain things mh claude can help you build in clock right ai in terms of this at least for me has been the best teacher how i learned end it's how i'm learning cloud code in codecs is just by having ai help me build with air but if i was starting today i i i hate to say it i would probably not learn n i would learn how to vibe code in something like card code and and just start very small with like a small use case something that's taking up a little bit of your time can you build a small solution that will actually work and i think with a little bit of practice with claude you can definitely do i love that that's awesome advice and mike this was great i think you've really transformed how i think about building these light tools to solve problems that are just manual hard things that get in all of our way and thanks for joining us on the show today we really appreciate having you thanks so much ke it great to be here hey everyone you know karen and i have been doing the podcast for a while now we've been at this for a couple years we love it we could not be happier to be doing this but we wanted to take things to the next level we wanna level up impact we're having with marketing against the grain so the next step of our journey is something we're really really excited about we're gonna launch the marking against the grain newsletter and marketing against the grain newsletter is going to be a amazing if you are a marketing leader practitioner you're in the trenches do in marketing every day this is for you we're gonna deliver right to your email inbox and you're gonna get all the behind the scenes frameworks practices tutorials from us from guest we have on the show and from people even beyond the podcast that we think are gonna be helpful and really have an impact on your day to day week to week doing marketing you're going to love it it is something we've been talking about for a while we're really excited to have it out in the world we've already got a hundred thousand marketers who are on this newsletter please join it's completely free we'd 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the head of product ad t just sit seven words that should make every knowledge worker set up and pay attention we are now transitioning into vibe working not vibe code in vibe working and if you are sitting there thinking okay another ai buzz word i can just forget this it's going to disappear in the next couple of weeks i need you to stay with me for the next twelve minutes because watch just ship last week from call than ant ent wasn't an incremental update it was really a moment in time it was when ai stopped being a tool you talk to and became a team you manage by the end of this you're going to understand exactly what vibe work it means why it changes the game for anyone who works with information for a living and this specific shift you need to make right now before everyone around you figures it out first let's get into the today's show before we get into today's show here's a quick word from hubspot cutting your sales cycle in half sounds pretty incredible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used breeds hubspot ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results were pretty incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent qualified leads quadruple hold and people spit three times longer on their landing pages go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow okay let's rewind twelve months the big thing everyone was talking about was thy code andre cap mccarthy one of the x founders of open ai coined the term here in this tweet the idea that you could describe what you wanted built and the eye would just write the code and that was based upon his early experience with cursor and claude on it and it worked and it's got much much better people with zero code and experience started chip apps developers started building in ten times faster it was a huge shift am x developer not a very good code and i was able to launch my own product through a lot of this vibe ko but here's the thing no one really talked about in relation to vibe code it only matter to people who are building software right what about the rest of us us marketers the analysts the consultants all of the different founders who are drowned in debt and spreadsheets and research the millions of knowledge workers who don't write code but still spend their entire day produce some work produce an output that's what's just changed this week and t the company behind claude shipped at whole set of updates that take the same principles behind vibe code and apply it to every single knowledge worker their head of products scott white who came on the shows willie set it perfectly when he said claude went from a model that you can kinda sort of talk to to accomplish a very small task and get an answer to something that you can actually hand real significant work to and it can do it really autonomously so you can get an outcome and it can do that work that is not buzz word speak that is not marketing speak that is a description of what the head of product at ant t actually said and i wanna break this down into three specific launches from last week and i wanna make them real for you to tell you the core shifts that are happening and why last week was just so historic okay shift one is really agent teens so here's how most people use ai today right you open chat you open claw you type a prompt you get a response you are saying this is the task i want this is an example of the output i need and you probably go back and forth and you refine it you make it better that's like hiring a person and kinda given them one job at a time right i give them the task i kinda describe my outcome i work with it and it's able to come back with the output what ent just launched is called agent teams that can orchestrate in cloud code sessions and it really starts to flip this model instead of giving ai a single task i describe an outcome i say hey i want competitive analysis of these five companies i want a summary deck and then i wanna a brief that i can send to my ceo and in the way we work with ai today i would do all those things separately right i would probably have to do some competitive analysis give it a ton of content to be able to do that i would have to describe the five companies i would have to like give it a template to create the deck i would have to give it a template and say here's how you write the brief that's how it would do it in the past but now with these agent teams claude just starts doing the work it spins up a team of agents and one is gonna do the research in and one is going to write one is building the deck so it builds up this team of agents and is able to orchestrate the work across them which really create digital workers who are specialized in individual tasks and then it orchestrate that work across them these are really like actual colleagues look if you wanna get ahead of the vibe working era we just dropped a guide on the one hundred thousand dollar ai jobs that no one is talking about these roles are paying anywhere between fifty thousand dollars to well over one hundred thousand dollar salaries we put together a guide that shows you exactly how to position yourself for these roles before everyone else catches on get it right now click the link in the description now let's get back to the show so let me tell you a quick story to kinda of bring this to life a friend of mine they run a small agency there's six people in that agency so it's a pretty small agency and when they go and try to get work they have to pitch for that work right so they were trying to pitch for a big potential client last month and the entire pitch took them in a week right they did full market analysis they did strategic dog they did the presentation you know he tells me hey we're spending like a week we have to do this all of the other agencies are doing that we turn up we pitch we try to win those dollars well with claude code and the skills and orchestration of this word you can basically just say the outcome is an incredible pitch for this customer that i want to win on these reasons right like go pull the information talk about our key selling points and show some examples of how we can make their lives better and it will actually go and orchestrate that across your team so now that agency he can spend much more time doing the work of clients making that work really great because he can have a team of agents orchestrated by cloud code to do all of the pitching so for him he's gone from orchestrated in that work across a small team and doing some of that himself to be in a agent orchestra orchestrated right he's actually use agents to go and do that work he's a manager of agents not manager of people and the people are busy crafting and great assets and marketing and things like that for clients this is available right now in cloud code and honestly this is the reason and a recent post i talked about what i'm spending my time on this year cloud code was number one i got a lot of feedback to say hey you're a market tier ex developer by the way but you're a marketer here why are you learning the cloud code because cloud code can do way more than actually build code i use it for tons of marketing use cases i've build a ton of cloud code skills that help me do my work and now i can build teams of agents that can orchestrate work across them to do that work stay tuned of course we have you covered with a cloud code for marketers come in very soon okay shift number two and this one is really gonna hit home for a lot of you knowledge workers right if you're watching this video you raise your hand if you've ever had to use excel or powerpoint i'm sure most people are using those tools and what you really do is you open chat tb you kinda copy and paste some content into them that gives you some output and you copy and paste it back in right if you're using powerpoint you're probably going to working in cloud you're gonna take some stuff put it in the powerpoint and back and forth the same with excel well that entire back and forth has really just disappeared because claude is bringing agents into the actual tools that you use so claude can now sit inside excel i'm a really good data person i was never really good at excel i've always been very fortunate to have a great analyst to work with me and i know how to do data analysis well i don't have to worry about that because i have the ability to understand what data matters turn an into interaction in cloud code and do all of the data work for me in excel and build all the stuff for me so that's an example and not just that you can do the same sort of thing in powerpoint so again it's really becoming an assistant that's available in all of the tools that you use you can start to just build all of your slides in powerpoint also a shout to claude in general building slides in claude has gone in so much better you can really build great decks right within claude but the key thing here is claude is really bringing agents into your workspace where you can use them with the tools like you use each and every day so that's shift number two i thought that was pretty incredible and then the shift number three is really opus four point six with its one million token context window so opus four point six was released on thursday i'm recorded this friday and it is pretty amazing i think this is going to be another step up one of the biggest limitations of ai up until now has been context in context is you can upload some documentation and then you can work with that documentation and that data right within that context window you've had this incredibly powerful tool but you can only feed it so much data at once and you'd have to chop up the work into little pieces to be able to work with it on the task you want to work with it on claude has a one million token context window to put that in plain terms you can feed it your entire code base right if you're a developer if you have a piece of software and you have a large code base you can give it all your financial filings you can give it every single doc you want to give it all at once and it has that in its context window and o opus four point six can now work with that context window and opus four point six is actually incredible but here's why this really matters when you have a one million token context window and you can provide it much more data ai is able to make connections across all of this data versus you trying to piece it together they can look at thousands of pages of documentation and it can figure out relationships between something that's on page of thousand and that's something that's on page one right it can really maintain consistency across the task that you're trying to do with that it doesn't lose its thread like it does when you're trying to piece the data in and that paired with the fact that opus point point six is another step up in terms of reason models and thinking models means that you now have a powerful ai assistant that can autonomously do tasks in a much much great way and so they're really the three trends that have happened over the past number of days we've seen agent teams become the real thing we've seen ai being brought to the tools you use we now have ai that has a huge context window and is a step up again in terms of thinking and reasoning and we should just step back and think about what is the bigger picture right if we really kinda zoom out here because the real insight isn't about a single feature and that's what i'm trying to show here it's really about a pattern vibe code was a big deal because it allowed you to describe what you wanna build n was able to write the code and build that thing and now over the course of the last year the ability for ai to code that thing without you having to step in and provide feedback and iteration and debug has got better and better and better vibe working in is gonna go down the same path it's describing the outcome you need and ai is going to do the work and that means ai is going from hey ai you can do this like one narrow task to hey ai you can do the entire piece of this work yourself because you are orchestrated in that work across different agents now i think there's a version of this online that is all hype and no substance that is not what we do here so here's what i really believe has happening and part of every knowledge workers job is going to become building and training in and deploy teams of ai agents not using an ai not prompt but actually manage an ai teams and if you think about what a manager does a manager doesn't do every task themselves right a manager defines the outcome they assemble the right people they give them context reviews their work and they iterate with that team and that's the skill that is really gonna become relevant for every single knowledge worker not just people with direct reports and here's the thing to bring this into reality of how important is most people aren't preference for this they're still in the i'm gonna go to chat tea and let me ask you a question and being an amazed at chat boutique can come back with the answer that's kinda like being in two thousand and eight and still thinking the iphone is just a phone with a touch of the screen the way you think about ai and what's happening is way too confined it's way too small it's not an answer engine it is a platform that allows you to build an entire digital team what do you do about it let me give you three concrete steps first you're gonna need to start thinking in outcomes and stop thinking in task so when you go to ai create me a blood post on the ten tips to do this thing is a task when you go to ai in the future and you're able to have an agent team you may ask it to say hey i really need a content strategy that can actually help grow my ex volume by thirty percent for technology founders and i wanna post three times a week and i want to be able to figure out how i can measure the success of that month on month do you wanna think of an right i wanna grow my audience by thirty percent for this audience and so that is one way to start thinking about how you're going to work with ai outcome base versus task base the second is claude code and i will have a lot of things come in around claude code both on this channel and everywhere else that i am i know that signs like i'm telling you to go learn code in it's not cloud code is really a command line tool where a lot of these agent teams live and i use it for lots of things not just build software i use it to do a lot of research i use it to do a lot of marketing content tasks it is an incredible tool that allows you to build skills and have agent teams to do everyday work cloud code is much more than build in software and the third one is you are going to have to start thinking in terms of workflows right not using an ai for these kind of one off tasks but trying to think about how i can build workflows that are repeatable and scalable and can be handed off to ai teams people who win in the vibe work and era aren't going to be the ones who use ai the most you know ai usage doesn't necessarily correlate you'd be in the most productive person or being the most impactful person that people who are really going to succeed in the vibe work in an era are the ones who system ai could come up with repeatable workflows and know how to delegate that to their agent teams to do here's what i want to leave you with right every few years there's a shift that splits the timeline into the before and after in hubspot we love a today and tomorrow slide here's how things work today here's how things will work tomorrow the internet was one mobile was one vibe coding was one and now vibe working is definitely going to be one not because technology is magic but because it changes who does the work for the first time in history a single knowledge worker can describe an outcome and have a team of agents execute on that work they're gonna be doing research right in analysis presentation and c generation all at once again they do it in parallel they have a team of agents doing this in parallel inside tools that you already use the question isn't whether this is happening i want to prepare you this is happening and it's going to get faster because all of these companies are using their own tools agent teams to ship these products it's whether you are gonna be the person who manages the agents or you're gonna be the person who gets replaced by them if this video is useful for you make show you subscribe i know everyone's going to watch this and they want to go well how do i get into the v work era i need to learn claude c work and cloud code skills i need to learn claude code for marketers tiers and cloud code growth the professionals we have got you covered more tutorials coming your way subscribe to the channel and i'll see you in the next video everyone you know kirin and i have been doing the podcast for a while now we've been at this for years we love it we could not be happier to be doing this but we wanted to take things to the next level we wanna level up the impact we're having with marketing against the grain so the next step of our journey is something we're really really excited about we're gonna launch the marking it's the grain newsletter and marketing against the grain newsletter is going to be amazing if you are a marketing leader practitioner you're in the trenches do in marketing every day this is for you we're gonna deliver right to your email inbox and you're get all the behind the scenes frameworks practices tutorials from us from guest we have on the show and from people even beyond the podcast that we think are gonna be helpful and really have an packed on your day to day week week doing marketing you're going to love it it is something we've been talking about for a while we're 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everyone today we're telling you how to impress your boss how to impress your customers how to impress your coworkers and we're doing it all with ai and slide decks we got kristen from ga who's gonna blow your mind with some ai slide workflow lows that are going to make your work sing let's get to today's show before we get into today's show here's a quick word from hubspot cutting your sales cycle in half sales pretty incredible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used breeds hubspot ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results were pretty incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent qualified needs quadrupled and people spit three times longer on their landing pages good to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow i'm here to argue with kieran and our friend kristen from gamma that slides are the most under underutilized and underappreciated format of content on the internet today and ai has completely changed oh we and everyone should think about slides to think about doing slides and we wanna show you what we mean today and so kristen f leads marketing at gamma she's here to walk us through some awesome slide workflows to show you how slide building has changed and ways that you can actually use slides to increase and accelerate your business growth your marketing your sales efforts so kristen thanks so much for joining us on the show today yeah thanks for having me okay kieran and i we've hated doing slides our whole life ai is finally making slides better and so maybe we should just jump right in kristen into maybe a first example show everybody exactly what we're talking about but we say like ai slides what do we actually mean and then we can kinda rip jam on the use cases and show some other examples yeah definitely happy too so i've got several examples i can show you guys from very simple to more complex but let me go ahead and start with something that hopefully blows everybody's minds right away and it just shows a visual power up this off the bat and then we can start digging into more sophisticated let's do it alright so i'm in gamma right now i'm using a demo workspace right now it's for a fictional d fitness brand called strat third probably taking on peloton and so what we have here is a couple template slide deck so i'm gonna go ahead and show you this one that would be an example of a template for a conference right so think about something that you're pitching to get monsters everybody has these stacks of you are big enough company that i have conferences is so what i'm gonna do here is i'm just going through remix from this stack because it's not twenty twenty five anymore it's twenty twenty six alright so last year's summit in this example was an aspen colorado so this year's summit is going to be and you guys wanna pick a place pam my spain like that right i everyone go to pam at pretty cool it's a great place you know so much don't buy property because you're driving on the prices and wanna buy a property there alright let's say make this stack for a twenty twenty sixth summit in palm fame we'll see what's this olives of great white wine that's all i'm gonna do quick prompts the most basic of basic prompts and this is like the classic like hey i got this deck but i gotta do a new version of this deck and it's gonna feel real dr to go through and do all that updating right yeah and probably be better if had a longer prompt but we're gonna one shot this because i think it all i think it shot i know what's really funny that brand doesn't exist right is this a fake brand strat mh yeah it's fake print yeah when you were showing this i was like oh that sounds cooler taking a bella and i was like digging it in to see where they were but like don't i was like their web presence really sucks this brand i can't find them anywhere it's not a real front but it looks cool you know yeah i use the gamma this is pretty cool actually i haven't seen the ways building the slides it's like super cool and we're still building some slides because some good images going here is gonna take a minute you it's pretty fast though i would say jeff fyi it's pretty fast here's our team but you can see it's adjusted everything from last year and so i probably know this is eighty percent of the work right of adjusting your deck for your sum of this year you can do this with sales tax as well too right so that's a much more frequent use case if you got a sales sack or a sales call you know get tense calls a day you're just remix it for each one for follow i mean by the way the hotel picked is very nice i would definitely go there but it's up on the cliff in my i i wanna go you know how people used to do maybe the state's because mode to how people used to do like these slide ro presentations where like they would have to just present a presentation they never heard of like now i want gamma to generate a random deck and i wanna just go to all the places it makes up in there and just feel like cool i i guess i'm gonna go safe at this hotel now it's gonna be great yeah can you show over at the airport and just you know here familiar with you hey real quick if kristen examples are resonating you're going to want this we're sharing ten complete automations with twenty four prompts that turn everything into slides call recordings become sales follow ups survey data becomes research reports blog posts become linkedin carousel cells grab it now hit the link in the description but i think that this is a prime example what you were just showing right where you're just like alright most existing companies have some level of slide decks and most existing companies have kind of a reoccurring cadences that you need to use and it'd be very easy to basically just copy this year's a event brief right like here's the location the schedule whatever into that prompt and just use last year's deck remix it and i mean i'm sure the one shot might be perfect but it's probably gonna be like eighty percent of the way there you do some light tweaking and you're ready to go totally let me show you something even better so any note taker you use whether you're using gong you know using fire i'm just a big granola stand so i use granola internally here nice so i have a quick zapier your workflow granola has got some good zapier integrations in my opinion just making us really super user friendly so let's imagine i am somebody on our sales team i've got ten calls in a day i record on granola my notes from all my first calls i put those in this folder and then automatically i'm creating a deck and gamma there's all sorts of settings you can adjust here but one of my favorite new features is actually doing this from a template deck and so on this demo workspace we have our strat for business you know the the custom proposal template deck and so this is an example here i just s synthesized a call for ridge line software there's no prompting this is all automated it's just taking in the transcript yeah and so if you're somebody who has you know ten calls in a day and you need to send follow decks to those ten calls and the follow decks basically kind of based off the same template with the same kind of instructions selling a product or whatever you can automate this very quickly mh right like you basically don't have to do anything and you you'll just go to ga and the decks will be there the notes from the call are getting past the ai is running it building the slides and then at the end of the day when you wanna send the slides off the right there yeah definitely so this next step slide that i'm showing right now i think it illustrates that right like this is just all from the call notes granola is pretty good summarizing you can do some more prompt engineering around this if you want but i think i've had good experience just straight from the transcript with gamma ai understanding this and if you wanna be really crazy you could just go ahead and email it directly let trust ai that lets you is that the ai i don't trust it's like if your a rep says some things that you don't want to be come back and put on to print hey on this here could you have multiple inputs in this workflow i wanted to put it in call transcript i wanted to put in hey like these should be in every deck they're like best practice there how we talk about how we sell certain parts of the process how we position our product to this type of customer these types of like more advanced sales tactics like how would that work yeah you know in zapier or a make you have the the option to have your prompting in here so i mean the simple way to do this if you're using zapier is just to prompt your this it's very decent turn this call transcript but you can add a lot more there mh some people do some processing in a step in between with like chat e or claude i mean you could add in hubspot right you can continue to like make a deck that captures my entire history of calls with this prospect and then you create a deck from this current call so this is a simple work you get started yeah you could basically actually add a step to turn to granola talk notes into a prompt i divided open ais as step where claude is a step i could actually have claude then just take the notes and craft that into a prompt and i've already told claude yeah you just have the instructions quad projector in this yeah yeah that's actually really cool actually yeah yeah then you can actually sorry my minds is not going into tell us what you're thinking carrying what's cooking in that okay this is probably too crazy but if you know certain characteristics about the company you could actually have clogged pre programmed with well tell me if it's company like this and if it's a company like this these are usually the kind of core things that work with a company like that right and so you can actually do some sort of pattern recognition in that claude step to say hey based on this natural language it's a company like this or that or this and you then you tell claude what are the right selling points because you actually correct you've noticed what kind of company it is so you can construct the deck to completely pattern match to sell exactly to that customer in the way that you've know that customers like that generally want to buy and how you've closed them in the past and i think that would be a pretty interesting way to like really craft that deck towards that company yeah definitely i have to show you guys this one i did because cloud connectors i'm obsessed with now and so i could also see you doing this with clock connectors right that's hubspot has a a cloud connector to gamma so i sent myself an email as if i was you know my assistant or you know whoever was like prepping me for a call for a podcast and you know here's all the prep on like kip here and so this is just a very simple clock connector i do have a hubspot connector in here as well too so for your specific you know use case that we were ripping on there you know i think that we could probably also do this through that full flow clog but in this case this it's gmail gamma and so search for my emails for all the contacts and marketing instagram i have to show you guys this because it made me laugh when i tried this last night and so straight into gamma it's actually pretty good it pulled in the details of the call this is good yeah nice and it actually well did some i mean you guys i mean i'll send this to you if you want you can tell me how this is really good actually is very good part my calls okay here's the best part alright here's the images of you're i looked that i have a superhero and you really like data here i'm like an accounting changer you're like generic like ai illustration guy that's pretty good that's actually exactly me i am anti socks yeah you are entire sucks so you did it captured your little style there yeah yeah yeah i like those little whole work shoes no socks yeah if you're supposed to this not watching on youtube kip bone i think is like clark cat tall it's hilarious is a you know generic like ai illustrated from tat guy was like a bunch of translucent into graphs but the growth for mo tour if yeah i mean imagine if you were prepping regular your a marketer or like prepping your leader or your ceo between know yeah i didn't do anything you know this was this is just like context research context from claude i love this it's basically like a great way to visualize deep research that claude is really great at in a very high consumption way and i do think that's the power of those connectors right where like what you're were showing before is really good like if it's a mass sales team that you're trying to automate stuff for this is like great like hey just working claude i wanna do some basic one off tasks and it does this very well and very quickly well yeah i like that it pulled in we have a prompt guide on our site so it's like you know it's there lots of takeaways or template that's really good we should do the reverse of this darn we should send this to guests exactly we shouldn't have a guest come and said this to us what's the office way we should be i'm looking at disco and god this is like a really good representative and we should be doing more so should be doing that's a good idea describe to show better than we describe it i love this she's miss the models are getting really good right yeah like image models are getting really good so good better more with it visualizations like the you know l were we're pretty good you know even better now and so you put those things together it's so much more consumable for when you can have a side visual storytelling completely great because i think when people think of slides i don't think they think of all the incredible way you could use them this use case you just showed me i think we will use this to prep our guest but i'm actually going to use this to visualize some of the things that claude just tells me exact seats that this is an easier way for sometimes for me to just see the results from a claude conversation but are there other things that you see value and bring it into life and slides that maybe others are under underappreciated right now yeah i think anytime you have an instinct to just send like giant blocks of text anybody you you should just put it in visual blurb on now because it's just so much more consumable so it's easier we just ran a user survey a thousand people long you know we did it with a survey tool that does some great already kind of like crunching and s sizing of the the data and comparisons but then i use claude to help process it and then i made a user research report all different slices within gamma we have some multi page gamma you can also do it more extensive reports so it like their overview and you you tab down and you have the you know free versus paid users split in thirty minutes i had a hundred page document to give to my team which also just probably you know hundred page documents are really long but it was just from the survey and the process and comparisons of results and because it was visual right you know it turns everything right so here's a table right here's like the things that resonated in most with like free users you know it because it's kinda so broken up so visual you've got charts diagrams mixed with text like takeaways user quotes pulled out thirty minutes i mean that's a type of task you'd have a whole team for right you know like take weeks like give them a task and then they come back with this massive report you pay somebody of the externally to do it so i mean that's just one example anytime when you would just be like here's like an output right could this be better visualize a second thing is there's just so much information and communication that happens all the time and so one of the projects that i did when i first started at gamma and this was not you know with gamma but it was notebook l is we have a slack community channel of our ambassadors and we were trying to get a better read on our persona so i just took all their introductions an the intro channel and just ask notebook l to take a look at this and tell me right who's the personas have our power user and it did a really nice job so i've been recreating that in gamma more recently i set up this demo here with a synthetic example of that so search the slack channel make me a deck and gamma summarizing the members who join my community this week you go ahead and run that which won't take very long at all but i can show you an output example here well you could just have a brainstorm just have it output of a brainstorm deck i've gonna run for my team and then present back to them and tell them what they're life this is who what ai says you really are and i'm gonna like purposely tell the prompt to focus in all their weak points so being love i love that personality analysis scam i mean that's for the reason i love working at this company right because once you're like embedded in like you can just visualize anything you know you just why not so here's an example of that community again this is just raw input raw input into gamma of introductions so because with claude we're counting all the new members how many people joined it's giving me some profiles here i think this is a stack and be looking at all these chief he's sweet vp level we got some world class engineering talent that's been joining it's starting to organize here case who we app in product to management design sales customer success making attempt here pulling logos of who's joined the community what companies is there from they are professional poker players i mean this is dream community a sort community i actually wanna join this community there's some poker talk about ai that's like my happy space that's great yeah but i think what's really fascinating here is i think in most people's mindset and i think a lot of people watching the shows mindset is probably like well alright i'm gonna have an l claude or chat gpu or somebody create a slide outline for this deck that i'm working on and then i'm gonna hand it over to gamma to just build that outline and what what you're actually saying is no no don't don't do that pick a data source whether it be survey whether it be a slack channel whether it be a g drive file a zap would have you and give it some specific instructions and then let it do the first version of the outlining image building and everything for you and then you can go back and and edit it from there and it's a very different process than i think most people are used to at this point you know it's a good point to bring up because it used to be my process as well too yeah course we'll have to do that anymore right like that's sort of one of the big advancements for the normal person i think you know in the past year is how easy it is to use no code tools or the connectors and slack and chat right now to just completely automate this yeah that is actually my workflow and so i this is the encourage me to like try something different it's and i actually would kinda default the claw to build an outline and then maybe use gamma or something to kinda build the deck but it's kind of incredible like obviously gamma has reason in logic and all that stuff i can do it itself but i think the other big takeaway for me just going three different workloads is because slides are as easy to create as just text has been in the past kinda what kip said we probably under appreciate in how many use cases are better in slide format than they are in text format correct there's probably like so many interesting ways to use it because it's so much easier to do now and so got even though i'm taking away from this while there's there's tons of things i'm probably doing that would be better and in that slide format and i even think about the conversations you and i have here and working solving problems well like is this is this a long form article is this a video we never say like oh no we're gonna make like a really remarkable like fifteen slide deck right and then sometimes that's actually the best answer is like a more mixed media format yeah well you know what's enabled that as nano banana pro yeah bo one hundred percent i wasn't doing that before like a year ago ai generated stock images like they didn't look great right you had to do you know a lot now i can just look so impressive and so that's like something i think important for people to notice i wanna show you guys one more thing because we just released leonardo two n b three in gamma and so now you can just generate animated slide decks off the bat oh appearance i love this mh okay i'm on in the alright so i'll show you some fun outputs but i'll do it live here so we can actually see it's real what the one shot does i'm gonna do this in our studio mode because it is all about making the most of the image model so these are gonna be pure image cards you can do ones with text as well too but i'll start with this one first and then i can show you what it looks like and maybe a a a presentation you'd be more likely to use for work so do you guys wanna give me a topic that you'd like to see a deck about i'm gonna do the five best poker players of all time let's see who it's gonna put into this list alright five best poker players all time i'm gonna do a six card deck here i have a title card and one for each alright so ga is gonna give you an outline first year i don't know many any of these people are are daniel yeah the kid alright so instead of ai images i'm gonna do ai animations here do you guys have a preference leonardo motion or view three point one let's go v three belongs yeah let's go the most expensive yeah the spinning those credits big time that's really all credits it's gonna take a minute since it's the the high end image models but it won't be too long do i have access this i'm using gamma or is this is like not not launched yet this particular one is on our ultra plan okay the is plan right i had to do in studio mode but you can do it on either our ultra business plans through the animations right okay kieran is such a sucker for animations that he's going to see this and he's gonna immediately be on the ultra i have no problem with spending credits my entire hire i had to be mortgage to use man last night so he's like you wanna upgrade for more credits yes you wanna upgrade for more credits you wanna give him more guys whatever i don't even know how much money i'm spend and turns out to spend spending a lot trying to agents are are credit gu yeah because no you don't because like i don't know it's like for a normal person trying to use i'm in the space but like i don't really understand tell me like this is gonna use five that's a credit sure i don't even look at my plan to too many credits i have is like you haven't got this many credits so you can pay us more money sure sounds good i mean the guy i mean this is like the best poker player ball time i mean i wish i was playing with all of the money against his guy first of all he's got third half he's got three hands so he's gonna be a pretty good poker player but like holding in your cars like that that's a terrible strategy alright well we're in just vibes mode and this scott's got all the chips i know look we're just trying to do this for illustrative purposes right and it's fun yeah but you can imagine with like a really good prompting not just in just five modes but with like text and context it'll be good this is pure ai but like yes it also is why it's so important to be in the ui where you can edit it yeah so correct i would go here and i would say this is terrible please take a peek this is great can you temp empathize it so i can use this in more places please take away the third hand it's unfair to other blair the interesting part about this is i don't think most people will think of slides as having animated components no yeah i don't think that's just how people are used to thinking and now what we're saying is like not just is it a lot easier to make slides not only are we gonna hopefully make better slides but like what slides are in the baseline expectations are gonna change a lot yeah like the fidelity and quality is gonna change dramatically yeah here would make a slide like this before i you like call in when your you know video team though you how much this would of cost pre ai a slide deck like this would cost like fifty grand cool search better storytelling tone i think that's like go one of the core takeaways is you know we started on this at a good place maybe to and slides probably are one of the more under appreciated forms storytelling and the fact that you can kinda do full multi model world class lives with prompts is a a huge unlock for bringing a ton of things to life much more visually here my question for you is if you were watching this video and you saw and your mind got opened up to what's possible like what are the first couple of things you would go and do to make your business more productive like i think one would certainly be christ flow of like have a note taker do call recordings and automate really good decks to prospects or customers versus just like sending them like a weak follow up email like that would certainly be one what else yeah i think the sales enable is a really good one like that's the one you talk through which is hey like i if you're talk to a rep and then you wanna increase the meat into close one deals like closing that deal that's a really good one i think dex as an outreach mh like if you have a team that has reached an add to the main cool contacts trend to get them to actually take a a call with you the fact that you could just ingest data about their prospect and create a incredibly visual deck just for them so we think of ai prospecting then as like text base today but you could actually do text plus an entire presentation just for that company and that's probably going to why them right now because that's something unique i think one of the ways if you were just wanted to increase your following and use it much more for marketing i think you could easily craft and i probably will try this side actually craft into linkedin carousel cells mh that would be a real use case that i think makes a ton of sense and i think like a lot of marketers like internally are just not good storyteller of their own strategy like internally you have to do a lot of stakeholder management you have to sell your strategy you have to make people feel your make good decisions and they really understand what you and the team are doing this is a great way to do it actually like put blood your strategy docs even probably you could just ingest your project management information and show like hey here's exactly what we're doing and this is why it's going to work yeah there's there's so many use cases i mean obviously i've spent a lot of time on a few here but since you mentioned social carousel this is a make flow that i'm going to start using for myself i know other people use it it's so hard to think about content to make all the time right people are busy so this is a quick flow spreadsheet you know insert your topic set it up and make or or zapier and this is the output so topic cycling moments of twenty twenty five sending it into make researching with chat generate the carousel so all automated with chat research here end up with something like this all the brand so something a share right to linkedin which if you a a power user of power linkedin poster you can actually do directly from gamma right here that's cool very cool well kristen maybe one last question maybe you can share this or not this is just personal curiosity which is like i noticed that you know i imagine a lot of people making dex and gamma what is the number one source of visits to shared gamma decks is it linkedin is it email is it just direct traffic like do you know how people are discovering these decks that are getting made right now that's a good question i actually don't know i i'm sure we have this in our metrics i would be interested in that as well because back in the day we all loved slide you guys don't rebuild a modern day slide share i'd be so sad it seems like just an obvious opportunity i mean we have so many users that real i'm honestly like the bulk of it is just like personal shares right sharing since yes every great team teachers professors sharing gamma you know sales team sharing gamma some people do publicly index their gamma and so we do see seo traffic great oh that's interesting or yeah know if you search for certain types of like slide decks or presentations you'll you'll see gamma pop up as well too yeah alright cool there's definitely probably a little seo a hacks with some public gamma links karen i think yeah maybe you and i'll play around and then do a follow ups show on that yeah we are loaded with new ideas lots of fun work for us to go do kristen thank you so much for building these workflows sharing these workflows with all of us and inspiring us all on how to tell some better visual stories and thanks for being on show today yeah thanks so much awesome we'll see everybody real soon on the next episode of marketing against screen everyone you know kirin and i have been doing the podcast for a while now we've been at this for a couple of years we love it we could not be happier to be doing this but we wanted to take things to the next level we wanna level up the impact we're having with marketing against the grain so the next step of our journey is something we're really really excited about we're gonna launch the marking against the grain newsletter and marketing against the grain newsletter is going to be amazing if you are a marketing leader practitioner you're in the trenches do in marketing every day this is for you we're gonna deliver right to your email inbox and you're gonna get all the behind the scenes frameworks practices tutorials from us from guest we have on the show and from people even beyond the podcast that we think are gonna be helpful and really have an impact on your day to day week week doing marketing you're going to love it it is something we've been talking about for a while we're really excited to have it out in the world we've already got a hundred thousand marketers who are on this newsletter please join it's completely free we'd love to have you as part of the marketing against the grain community and it's easy you can click the link in the description below or you can head to marketing against the grain dot com slash subscribe

if you are like me and you are sick of just prompting endless chat and google jim and i to get an image or video and you're just in that death spiral of making cool creative for your company this is the show for you i have the best expert in the world lore who is the ceo and c cofounder founder of wee he's joining us to show you some mind blowing workflows that are gonna change how you build creative for your business let's get to today's show before we continue let me tell you about a podcast i love marketing school marketing legends neil patel and eric sue bring you daily actionable digital marketing lessons learned from years in the trenches marketing school delivers bite sized marketing wisdom you can implement immediately whether you have a new website or you're an established business you'll learn the latest in seo content marketing social media email marketing conversion optimization and general online marketing strategies that work today they just did a great episode called ten seo lessons that still work in the ai era listen to marketing school wherever you get your podcasts before i'm so excited to have you on the show today we met a couple months ago and took a little while but we got you here to talk all about ai and creative today welcome to marketing at screen thank you so much keep super excited to be here with you you know excited to have you because you know my meeting with you was one of my favorite meetings of twenty twenty five because we guys got to to jam and debate and talk marketing and more importantly like how ai is changing how marketers and founders create and tell stories and build creative assets and i think part of a challenge historically it's been it's like it's been very time consuming and very expensive to make really good videos really good ads really good website designs product imagery all of these things social carousel social videos all these things and you started this company wee dot ai it got acquired by fig and you were out on the the journey to basically solve this problem and bring creative to the ai world and help make it easier and faster and better for everybody can you kinda just start off with like what have you learned in this process whatever have you learned in building weaving in terms of what ai is really good at when it comes to creative work and where ai really needs like a lot of human help and support so i'll start saying that it's not easy so one of the key things that we believe in and we started with that is that it shouldn't be easy but it should be much more robust so kinda like there is a huge promise there yeah of creativity of speed but i think that too much of the focus was at the ease of it and it's not so easy like i think it's you you still need the professional people involved but their craft the way they do things have changed so they can do much more so the way we look at it is that the craft is shifting from cam making pixels into a building process or building systems that will guarantee much more speed and scale and we've seen the ability to leverage all of these capabilities that this technology is able to offer but it it usually doesn't come without kind kinda like this massive kinda like trial error and learning curve and so i wanna start like putting that on the table and then also saying that models themselves so kinda like they're good at a lot of things they're not so good in a lot of other things there but they are improving so fast so like whatever you can look at and say oh ai i cannot do that like okay wait a couple of months is gonna be able to do that right so it's moving really fast and you should be building for the future so it's kinda you're shifting the way you build the way you work then you're always future ready you're always going to be the first that is able to leverage these new capabilities that they're always coming in well i think that's gonna be a big key theme of the show today which is like how do you evolve how you build and how you work in this ai world especially when it comes to like creative work because i don't know i've experienced i've talked to tons of friends and customers who've also experienced it's like well try to generate this image in and chat gp over here banana banana over here i i did this v three clip but like i couldn't get it to kinda sync up and work and it all lives different places which is kinda hard and like i have to retail it all the time what my brand colors are what my brand style is and so like i end up just iterating for an hour on something that isn't that good and you become dis with the process right and i assume that you're nodding because you talk to more people than i do on this topic and so what wanna talk about is how you actually build processes to get past that and solve that problem today right yes definitely it is a lot around kind like switching your mindset from trying to iterate on like an end endless situation to get to something that works but it's never good enough because even if you reach the thing that you want now you need to change it now you wanna do it again now you want someone else from your team to do it or you're a designer and you want to market here to be able to do it and you're stuck at the same point so i think that the real mind shift is and switching from kinda like trying to do the same thing of like i'm focused at creating this single asset into building a system that can then be reused that it's robust enough that you or your kinda consumers like the market tiers or whoever it is that consumes your creative work is able to then reuse your system part of the reason tools like we and i've i've used v and a bunch of other things are so important is because ai i also let you get a lot of different iterations and a lot of different versions of things and sometimes we haven't i think as marketers evolved our mindset past the like well i'm gonna take a long time to make this one thing no make a lot of things to start pick the really good ones and then refine them hey real quick if you're getting value from this conversation you're gonna wanna check this out we're sharing laura exact youtube thumbnail a b testing workflow the one his team spent a full week building plus seven more creative ai workflow blueprints and over twenty ready to use prompts the goal is simple turn hours of asset creation into seconds grab it now hit the link in the description hey lure people are gonna wanna know can they go sign up for we how much does it cost like give people the logistics before you show them cool stuff so we is a self serve product anyone can go into e start with our free tier and then paid subscriptions are starting from nineteen dollars per month and what it practically gives you is access to all different ai models for mostly around media generation and editing alongside classic editing team tools which you will see in a second and then the ability to really build and scale creative systems which will walk through that as well we were acquired pretty recently by fema so now we're part of fig which we're super excited about we ask and we'll probably talk about that a bit as sure and yeah i think that's as an intro i'd love to walk okay that's perfect so anybody can go and use wee there's a free version if you wanna go test it out then the paid version starts in nineteen dollars i think what's interesting is how you framed it is that there's a workflow component there's an editor component and then you also get access to a lot of the different ai models because certain models are better for certain tasks okay with that all out of the way now walk us through kind of the example that you have here so let's start with a really simple and naive way of using wave so we is a node based editor and that means that each of the boxes that you see here is a node it can get an input and it shoots out an output everything goes from left to right so in in this specific case we're starting with prompt node so it can get a text as and input and we're putting in a text and that text is kinda like a guidance for text to image model to generate an image as well you can see how this one node is connected to multiple different text to image models i can choose and run all of these different models again if i want another version what you can see how i have here google's nano banana and re and mystic and mini and gp so practically any major model that's available out there is going to be available on weaving and one of the fun things you can do is to test them all together to do the same task so the most basic one is generate an image from a tech so that's what we're playing around here and you can see how each of them does something that's pretty different yeah very different outputs from the same input exactly right which is also very emblem of the good and the bad of ai you know jitter of ai it's not gonna give you the same repeatable output all the time and this is like a perfect example of that exactly exactly and then what we're doing right here again to showcase that a bit farther down so taking one of these images and putting that as a first frame for multiple video models and you can see how each video model added at an octopus to the mix with a prompt and you can see how each video model will do quite a different interpretation of that prompt and then again it's really like the most basic way of using just kinda comparing different models doing the same task so that's fine and kinda the reason people would be excited about that is that you have everything in one place because things keep on changing so fast and you don't wanna change your subscription every couple of weeks and if you're a big business that's not it doesn't take two weeks like you know that right it takes like months until you have something exactly so kind of like having everything in one place it's really powerful switching into something that's a bit more complex so we're starting again with the same frame we had before but the idea here is that you have all of the classic editing tools that professional used to have so our belief is that there is no reason to give it up like in so many cases you wanna manually control things you don't wanna prompt your way through them so for example if i wanna create the right depths of field i can use a blur and i can control it manually and i'm not using any generally day i'm all not spending any credit but also i have full control over that so kinda of like isolating each of the different layers with masking and then editing each of those and then using a levels note to the color correction so to get it exactly to the right coloring for myself and then once i have the perfect image then i can create a video and so the idea is that there is no reason to give up control and i think that's been one of the biggest challenges that creative a face is kinda like you give up control as you said you do like end endless amount of iterations yep and then if you need to go back and change some things like all over again yeah it's the false binary that has existed in the early days of ai where it's like oh well you can go and build this creative asset in these professional tools or you can go generate this image or video over here and they're kind of very disconnected and it's like well they have to come together and if you are professional or even if you're a hobby and you know a little bit because you could go and basically get feedback on a given image from an ai model right that would tell you oh we think you should do a color correction we think you should make these changes and what you're doing is trying to make it very accessible to make those changes yes exactly so for example like that layer based composition like so basic right but you just don't get it in generative media tools and trying to prompt your way through kind of like move to pixels right like that it's impossible it's somebody is trying to do it it's so hard exactly now switching into kind of like the system thinking so i was talking before about creative system so here's an example of kind like a systematic thinking so that use case is like i wanted to take an image from a scene and create new angles for this scene so what i'm doing right here is starting with this image using an l to analyze this image mh and then to come up with ten new ideas for new angles for that specific scene so we have this person with a pink teddy in the desert and not all of them are perfect not all of them are consistent but you get enough like good outputs from that and you can actually create all of these different images and the thing is like once i've built this kinda like new angles machine all i need to do is kinda change that image and i can run this entire thing again and i'll i'll get like completing your results and so the idea is that you're building your own toolbox and once you've built your own toolbox you can reuse it again you don't need to start from scratch every time yeah the big thing here is we're trying to move from the novelty of like oh you can enter some words and get an immature video which is cool and awesome but it turns out if you actually wanna apply using those things there's a lot of stuff that needs to happen you know you need a lot of der adaptations of them you need to do some polishing you need some editing you need to make the make sure they're in the right format for the actual in place that they're going to live and when you talk about building systems that's really what you mean here i think it's like how do you actually do that in a way that from end to end you can go from i've got this idea to a good final polished output in the right format to go in you exactly and so i think this one is something that a lot of people can relate to and that's about kind starting with your own style so that's about the illustration but we're seeing a lot of brands building their own kind like style guides and guiding their generation based on that's what it can be in this case it's illustration so this workflow starts with this for illustrations that are in a very distinct style could be like a specific brand that does that and allowed you to put in new guidance for what you want i'm and that's enough so let's see the output of that so we wanted to characters shaking hands and you can see that the output is like the exact same style with new characters shaking hands now the cool thing about that is that once i've built this system i wanna hand it over to other people so i want marketers to be able to now they have a new ui like there an event happening and they wanna create something immediately they don't wanna open a brief to the studio and wait until it arrives and everything and the studio has actually already kinda like outsource that and allowed the the machine to this so the the studio has built this machine and they don't need to be involved in that anymore so one of the things you can do is to turn this complex node based spaghetti into what we call a designer so that's a simplified interface and in this case the only input that we want is that what they wanna see in the image and you know that the output is going to be so i create a few for the podcast and i create this gummy bear are watching netflix i like the gummy bear is good and then that's the only thing you need to edit and you know that it's always going to turn out consistent so that's really the power of system building and the power of weaving of expanding beyond that single person that's able to control ai is how do you turn that into a capability that the entire organization can then use and so you you can think about your own kind like brand style guide and what's important for you as a brand and turn that into your own brand machine with old and nuances i think what's interesting about this right is that you can have a specialist build a system a system requires a lot of like basic understanding and know how some real experience and it takes some trial in error right you just don't build a system like you just showed overnight take some moderation but then you can expose it to people who don't have all that knowledge in a really simple way and i think when you talk about building systems that's like what i think about because it's like right now people are in chat gp or jim and i or whatever and they're doing their own system and right so if you've got ten marketers you've got ten marketers doing their own system and it's gonna be really hard to be consistent to be clear to have like really compelling output if everybody's doing own thing nobody's learning from anybody and everything is all siloed up when you bring all that together and you're working like off of one base system and then just like cool you can bring your individual prompt and instructions and vision here but know that the output is gonna be along the lines of what everybody else is doing exactly i think when we started we're wondering if it's going to be kind like oh we only need like whatever twenty workflows and the entire world is gonna use them or are there actually going to be that many niche cases yeah and i think it's a letter like every big customer were landing with where you're seeing them building dozens of different workflows and they have like their own kind of like image expansion their own image to video and it's all built on what's important to them the way that they work the way that their brand is built and that really makes the difference between okay i can get to a video that's like eight percent and i'll iterate on that a hundred times or i'm gonna work three days or a week to build this workflow but once i've built it now i can use it like and this number of times and it's it's really helpful for like three hundred people that are now riding on that and i think that that has been a huge unlock for marketing teams and kinda like changing the creative to be instead of a bottleneck to be an enabler so they're building systems and the entire process of kind asset generation has been streamlined yeah i think that's right making creative is hard it's real work and it takes real depth of thought and businesses in brands you love don't get there by accident to get there through a lot of hard work it's just how can you now scale that hard work and the expectation is that that creative is gonna only get better and more personalized and have iterations in the future and so you have to only do that by scaling systems oh i feel youtube thumbnail flow i love a good youtube thumbnail yes you're gonna love this one so this one starts with bringing in thumbnails and the idea here is that once you've build that out all you really need to do is kinda like throw in a thumbnail decide what type of ab test you wanna do so we have like visual hook we have headline thumbnail pose and gesture so you decide what type of ab test you wanna do for that thumbnail and we both know that's kind like youtube ab testing is available but a lot people are not leveraging it because it's like too much work yeah a lot of work and so the idea here is that you throw in the image like your baseline so you you are creating the first version of it mh and then you decide like what type of ab test you wanna run and there's a really smart system i'm gonna make it that available so anyone can kinda hop on over that and hopefully you're gonna use it not pictured is producer dare and leaning deeply into the the camera right now being like it's gonna save me a ton of time so it's awesome so just a quick example i just did it immediately before we started so i took this image and chose pose and gesture as the av test i wanna make and you can see that it actually came out with pretty amazing results it is actually pretty amazing you know people need to remember that these are like pretty complex generations that you're doing so it's not like instant to do this it's fast but it takes some minute to yeah so to build that actually it took like it took us a week to build it so it's not that it's to native it down to something that actually works yeah to build this workflow took you about a week to build yeah yeah i bet it exactly so it's like a lot of iterations team you get to something that's consistently that at least like a big portion of their result is useful i mean this workflow though is essentially an app that i'm sure there probably a handful of people that are out there that are like building one to sell for like ten twenty thirty bucks a month and you just built it in a week oh we met so many kind like one person agency that have built their own kind of like multiple systems like that and they're just kinda selling ten thousand dollars projects most of them they can run with a click of a button but they did put a lot like months of work into building a proprietary understanding and knowledge this is what i really wanna express upon people even if you look at this test like that when you went and did the actual generation you had the drop down of all the different types of tests like you have to know the types of tests you need to know what changes visually for those different tests you need to have best practices for that like there's a lot of deep understanding of the subject matter that comes through this exactly and like that's very hard exactly so in this case we kinda like we built as you said so we have like a description here of each of the types of eight testing and maybe like you in the process you do like different type of exactly you have different guidance and you do need to put in the time to build that in a way that works for you so the outcome is actually useful for you because otherwise it's it's nice but you cannot use it you have here a marketing brief so again we created something obviously using gp for a marketing against the grain marketing against grain in existing challenge default thinking and marketing do you like it do i do like this this is good alright so here you put in your marketing brief obviously you can edit it you come and put something that that you like it worst well enough and then you have ab testing guidelines and then we've created this component that is just a list and if you wanna kinda like add new options you would add the description here and you would add the options here that list menu so there is kind like a plumbing work to get this thing built out sure now the second thing is that here we have a component we call it visual design extractor it collects the inputs from these three so one of the things you could think that would work is that you just use those as like a reference for nano a banana but that turned out to not work well enough so you you use an l in the middle to provide a description of each of those so you have a description of what what worked for me so there's a system prompt that asked the l to describe it and the way that i want you are a senior visual design analyst and brand system specialists your role is to analyze a set of four existing youtube thumbnail as blah so you have like a really detailed yeah very detailed description exactly and then it does that overall visual identity the visual that projects tone expertise alright so you have this component here that analyzes the best performing images and then here you have the engine so it takes everything we've seen up until now it combines it into a very detailed prompt it's a con academy so it it actually just connects text yeah in the way that we built it and then it comes up with five new outputs for the new tests and those are going into an eraser so it breaks it down and then the input eventually to nano banana here which is an image generation model is the reference image for the original image we had here and then this very detailed prompt that relies on everything we've seen up until now and this works pretty well so we have like the post changes we kind like we have a wildcard that tries weird things and we have like the visual hook you you have like the text change and so eventually you have these image models generating things that hopefully a big portion of them are useful for this case that's a workflow that i really like and i think that it showcases kinda like a very niche and specific use case and we're seeing teams build dozens of those internally and then use them it's usually it's not a one size fits all kinda like when you try to do one size fits all it will never get to the level that you need right well look marketing is about making the best guess possible right you're trying to make the best guess possible based on what you believe the taste and style you have and what your audience wants and i think that in the post ai world you have to have a lot of different guesses that you can test right and that's where most of the upside is and i'm sure we'll actually probably be using this to test the thumbnail for this episode but but i'd always try to remind people is if you have something that you were doing on a very regular basis you need to build a system for it like if you're running a youtube channel like us when you know what you're always doing you're always testing to get thumbnail nail you're always dealing with thumbnails you're always testing thumbnail so you gotta do that like that that's something you have to make a system because you're just wasting so much time and effort if you're not exactly and i think that's one of the most challenging things to kind change is the mindset that new technology means that it's going to be easier and faster it is going to be faster but not on day one there's a learning curve there's a learning curve and there is an investment and so yeah i think that's what leaders need to understand that they need to put in the investment to their rewards otherwise they're staying behind there like they can tell the story of like i have everybody in the team using gp i have everybody team using this or that and they're generating but like the question is are you able to get to production level are you able to shorten cycles are you able to really the democrat creativity internally and i think that most teams are still far behind on that because it's not that simple i think i would go so far say every team is still far behind the opportunity of what could be done right and the point i would just push on is that if you're leading a team even if it's just like you another person the thing you have to focus on is okay do we have a system or not okay if we need a system because this is something we do regularly do we understand what the next step is to make the system better right you're like oh cool well i actually need to actually extract the deeper description of this image and not just let the l determine right in that last workflow we we looked at just a couple of minutes ago and it's like i have all the confidence patience in time for any team where they're just like they can clearly articulate oh this is the next step we're working on to make this thing better and then you can debate if that's the right step or not or something else is but like that's the right area of focus it's not just like i'm doing some activity it's like i understand what to do what the next opportunity is and i'm trying to go take advantage of it and i think it's so hard because when you're on social media like everybody's telling you how everything is agent and they're doing like everything in two seconds and like because this new ai model is just absolutely killing it and i think that some of the challenges is is also to be able to find to identify the real stuff yeah from the hype and be able to invest into them it's it's not about the next week think you're saying people lie on the internet and that is i mean i will say it i mean people lie on the internet and people are hyper and they have incentives to do different things right and it will feel impossible to keep up is i think part of what you're saying unless you build systems and are clear on like this is what's important to me and what i'm gonna focus on learning to make what's important to be better and that's like really what one of the core things we're talking about today is just evolving the mindset of how you use a ai to actually build systems to do more durable work than just one shot some stuff in chat g or google gemini exactly and your self like what happens when like a better model comes out like are you gonna go crazy and i need to change everything you do or are you in a position or like okay amazing now everything i'm doing like tomorrow is just to be way better yeah and i think that if it's the first then you're doing it wrong you're kinda like chasing the hype and if it's better then you're doing the right thing you're building an organization that's going to keep on improving and evolving with any marginal kind of tech change you know i completely agree with that and what i guess i'd love to understand is like you guys are part of fig man now what's the future of all of this like you know the models are moving fast yes and they're gonna keep moving and that's gonna be good but at the end of the day i'd had actually argue most of us shouldn't have to care about the models what we're trying to do some jobs and we just want you know the model to do the best job we're doing so like get out the crystal ball and just kind of tell us like where's is creative work going over the next one to two years with everything that's happening in ai so i'm probably gonna tell you a lot what i said so far that i think that craft really matters does and i think that teams need to kinda like change their mindset and craft is going to change thing was always around craft and i think that's why that change has been so natural to us yeah we've always looked at fig is kinda like the we had the same values we consume we copied a lot yeah dylan and team are all the ultimate crafts people i i think that they've done a great job and i think that in a way you kind like fig broke the silos in product making yes and in the beginning that seemed crazy like which designer is gonna allow other people to see how they work real time and i think that for us one of the things that excited us the most is like creative marketing video editing work has still been siloed up until now and while we've still early and kind of like the way you can collaborate on weaving we see teams working together being able to deliver from one person to that so i think the future is not around changing the craft to system building seeing something that's much more collaborative and seeing kinda like creative evolve from kinda like pixel editors into system builders and enabler instead of just kind like like plant workers they're gonna be not just delivering their time they're gonna be delivering systems that are then able to scale up and deliver much more than that yeah and you know what one of the things interesting laura is that when people hear the word systems they're like blah blah blah blah i don't know what you knowing what you really mean like system seem complex and process for the process sake and all of that and i think where you and i are in like deep deep agreement is that the future of ai for i think most marketing tests and for most tasks and general at least is way more collaborative than it is now and you need humans working together right now those humans are very siloed apart on all of these tools and because it's more collaborative it's way more transparent and it's not dependent on like one model or one technology or one workflow like you have people collaborating to build just better workflows and those workflows eventually become systems and applications and all these complex things if they're on the things that's really really important right and i think the biggest thing for me on the future of ai especially in creative work is i think it's gonna move from an individual sport to a team sport and it's not a team sport right now i'm out there i'm talking to everybody you are too i mean you can tell me if i'm wrong but it does not seem like a team sport today now you usually have like few individuals are doing brilliant job and people are struggling to follow and what they're building is like mind blowing but the same time not really doing any business impact yeah you want something that's going to impact the entire team you want your team to progress you don't want certain set of individuals to blow your mind and then they stuck at the same problem again yeah and so i guess what's your advice for people who are trying to get over that hurdle you know and and what i'm saying is because like like you just said that thumbnail workflow took you all a week and you guys are pros so if you're not a pro maybe it takes you a four to six weeks you know and that's daunting because everybody i talked to was like gosh i'm on this hamster wheel i got so much stuff to do the thought of learning how to do things in a new way and actually getting less efficient to get more efficient it seems like a near impossibility and so like what do you tell people who i imagine a lot of people watching this that feel that way at this moment i think it's one of two things like if you feel like you have too many things that you need to deliver tomorrow morning you don't have the time to kinda like invest in building stuff and learning new stuff then go back to the old way like don't try to hack it through like the simple one size fits all tools because they're just not gonna work for you i think that you should decide like how much value you can gain out of it and you should spend time learning the teams that are really successful are the ones that are waiting to invest and and they should look at it as kind of like r and d right we're coming from tech companies we know that not every effort you put into like the r and d team will yield something substantial in many cases like you get nothing out of it i think that's kind of mind shift of like creative and marketing like they need to do r and d as well yes and when they do r and d you build your own proprietary capabilities that nobody else has and gives you like a read advantage over others so i think if you're taking the simplistic approach of like i'm gonna hack you through gp i have this like really long prompt is gonna do something amazing that's not gonna work i think you need to be able to invest the time in the right set of tools and capabilities to keep on learning and to look for things that are deep that will give you that edge and assume that some of your effort is not gonna yield results because that's how r and d works assume a decent amount of your efforts not gonna get results and the one thing i would maybe push and add a little bit is right now at this learning and this investment in system building and understanding how i can build this case creative but there's lots of different things you could say here is like optional and it's not really optional like this is not a little bit of a transformation is a big transformation out in the world which means you will hit a point in which you cannot compete unless you don't have the right ai first process and technology to win and i think what you and i are here whether it be crm whether it be design tools marketing tools what have you like you need to get the right infrastructure in place now so that you can go faster as the market is gonna continue to speed up yes right yes i completely and i i i'm seeing it every single day every single week there i know there are lot of founders that watch the show a lot of marketing leaders that watch the show it's like if you are not taking that r and d approach and that systematic approach to your marketing especially in like how you're transforming me to be kind of an ai first marketing organization then it's gonna be really hard to win a year from now two years from now because the level keeps yeah the expectations and level the game full yeah and it's like as you said like if before that something was enough like a year ago that's not enough today that's definitely not enough in a year for us so like everybody's progress teams are becoming faster teams are able to deliver things that are better more creative better tested using kinda like better data whatever it is like it keeps on programming and if you're not able to kinda keep on leveling up and pushing the boundary higher like if you find yourself using the same tools that your parents are using so once my kinda like my parents are using judge to create images like obviously like at this back and you use the same obviously there has to be a better way yeah so i mean you should not be using the same tools that everybody's is using you should not be doing the same things that everybody's doing should make sure that you're always at the forefront of what's possible and you should assume that it requires a lot of dedication to get something valuable out of it i think what's really interesting about you what you just said is that the other days of ai just these assumptions that the models are gonna be so good that you just type anything you want in and get exactly what you want and it would just comm monetize any specialized skill or knowledge and it's just not true if it was true we wouldn't be hiring versus you know software engineers at record pace as ai has gotten really good at software engineering it's like though ai is making the real specialists more so i think one of the other things is like if if you're a marketing team and you don't really have a specialized creative like you still need that point of view whether it we a freelancer an agency hiring somebody that you can't outsource that to ai yeah what ai does makes you ability to scale that and the expense around that much better but you still can't outsource that and also as we've seen before with a youtube one right it's like you needed an expert market here to say that's how we do ab testing like you cannot give that step up and you need the expert creative to say that that's the brand guidelines and that's the constraints that i wanna have here and that's how i built it and break it down and so the same skills you needed in order to to create or the same skills you needed to do marketing are still really important so you have the right intuition you have like all the theory e behind it you have experience that you know what you're looking for and you know what's right and what's wrong because it's so easy to assume that gp knows it it doesn't know it it will give you an answer that sounds good enough but it's wrong and so i think that having those experts is still critical like you cannot do it without them but those people need to understand that their job has changed they're not doing the same job they've done a year ago yeah i always saw people like the what you need to do hasn't changed nearly as much as to how you do it you know like a lot of what you need to do is very similar but how you do it has changed massively and the tools available to do it in better smarter ways f dramatically so laura one of the things that i think is very interesting that you also have done in addition to like deeply understanding how ai applies to creative is you run an ai native company which is like this big buzz out in the market now but i do think there is something different about running an ai native company in this day and age and i you know tons of founders watch the show too i wanna make sure that we're throwing a little bit of info to the founders out there what you learn about building an ai native company how to get customers in this world i just how it work so the interesting thing is was there's no playbook and i think it was so true before ai and i think it's even true now the market is like much harder i think than it queues to be in a way because everything is so noisy but then at the same time it's kinda like the best time to build a startup up because you're building the fastest and the wallets are open like companies are looking to adopt new tools and i think that there was no time in history when that was so true what worked really well for us in our case is that we've built something that's really appealing for the most advanced users in the market yeah so we actually haven't tried to capture the entire market we just tried to do something that the top one percent of creative are gonna get really excited about and the cool thing is that these people are happy to also talk about how they work and because we view so much about how you build things and not just a find output that makes it something that's really fun and easy to share so that created that really cool flywheel for us and i'm sure it's not applicable to any startup so it's like very specific to our way but for us that that thing worked really i think that what hasn't changed is that like as a founder you need to find the thing that works for you you need to understand your market you need to understand where your customers are you need to understand your beach and like who is that audience that you're reaching out to first and what's the best way to reach out for them so for us it was a a lot around kind of community building so identifying that audience and putting all of our efforts to bring them in as a community into wee we call them the artist collective we gave them a lot of support they gave us so much into like what we should actually be before on so like most of the best workflows that were built over the past year were not built by us that were built by the community and you can see them on social media and so that's the thing that's worked for us but i mean community is probably not for everyone and that's a play that you should lean into a that horse for your audience and your product well community really works these days because you need to learn quickly and you need that close that group of people that's sharing all the good and the bad with you and you were very focused on here building for i think the that's interesting is even though you were solving for like maybe in an more advanced creative you had a free version of the product you know i do think there's a motion for every ai native company out there which is like your community makes cool videos of stuff they've built and somebody else can go build something like that in a low friction way because they can sign up for free they don't need to talk to a salesperson it's not super expensive and like my thesis all along has been the best companies will be those who spend a higher percentage of their cost of customer acquisition to like api calls to the l m's then ads to google and meta right and i think you all are really good example of that's exactly the path you took yeah i think that makes a lot of sense and and you see much more than than me i'm kinda like how the market behaves and how it works and yeah i agree that people are looking to learn and there is an opportunity to build something that scales up pretty fast through content and how you can achieve things and then i think it's also about the audience right because not every audience it's kinda of like distributed through enthusiasts and champions i think kind like developers are there yeah entrepreneurs are their creative are there it's probably not true for i know like hr people i would guess kinda like if you build an hr software not sure it has like a self distribution on gust and a lot of those folks have really high mps products and word mouth is a big part of it you know so it's like building a good product that is valuable to a specific set of people is timeless right and you figured out how to do that in kind of the ai native way but like there are some things about building really great companies that just persists and exist the whole span of time laura this has been awesome over a run out of time so i wanna say thank you on behalf of all our view here at mark grain for coming on showing us amazing workflow i think we're going to drop a link or two to some of the we workflows below so that if you wanna go and customize those or use those yourself if you can go and do that and we'll see everybody really soon i'll mark against the grain lord thanks so much for being here thank you so much i really enjoyed it everyone you know karen and i have been doing the podcast for a while now we've been at this for a couple years we love it we could not be happier to be doing this but we wanted to take things to the next level we wanna level up the impact we're having with marketing against the grain so the next step of our journey is something we're really really excited about we're gonna launch the marking against the grain newsletter and marketing against the grain newsletter is going to be amazing if you are a marketing leader practitioner you're in the trenches do in marketing every day this is for you we're gonna deliver right to your email inbox and you're gonna get all the behind the scenes frameworks practices tutorials from us from guest we have on the show and from people even beyond the podcast that we think are gonna be helpful and really have an packed on your day to day week week doing marketing you're going to love it it is something we've been talking about for a while we're really excited to have it out in the world we've already got a hundred thousand marketers who are on this newsletter please join it's completely free we love to have you as part of the marketing against the grain community and it's easy you can click the link in the description below or you can head to marketing against the grain dot com slash subscribe we'd

chat they're put in ads in free something we've talked a lot about on this show and we have been waiting for this announcement kip give me your take what do you think this actually means for mark tiers entrepreneurs but able to get access to ads right there and then in chat i think this is gonna be a gold rush marketers i think this gonna be one of the biggest marketing stories of the year maybe the decade we're gonna give you three specific ways we think it's a gold on the show today and we're gonna tell you a story of someone who did this in the early days of google ads and became a billionaire and we're gonna help you follow his same path alright let's get into today's show before we get into today's show here's a quick word from hubspot cutting your sales cycle in half sounds pretty incredible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used breeds hubspot tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results were pretty incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent qualified leads quadruple and people spit three times longer on their landing pages go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow we're gonna cover an incredible opportunity for all you marketers out there all you brands out there and all you entrepreneurs out there and that is chat is getting into the ads game and ai ads in general that's what we're gonna cover on this episode and how you can make a ton of money from a new ai ads platform like chat now the setup up here why is this an opportunity ai ads in general or an opportunity but chat is the gorilla the goliath like it is a huge opportunity because it's a net new platform where we can start to do paid ads and chat has nine hundred million weekly active users six billion monthly visits and they are a top five global website if chat was able to get the equivalent dollar value per user as google google make about fifty two dollars per user chat gb at nine hundred million users could be a forty seven billion a year company in terms of paid ads right so that's a huge opportunity for chat and a huge opportunity for everyone here listen to this to be early and extract a lot of that value chat do think it's gonna do about one billion dollars in ads in twenty twenty six scale into twenty five billion in twenty twenty nine and i think this is what a lot of us have been waiting for for two reasons because it's a new platform where we can start to really build forecast and scalable growth and it actually may give us some new analytics into chat because they're probably gonna have to give their users some analytics so kip what do you think are you excited by the opportunity to start paying chat some dollars to reach of those users first of all i'd love to play chat gp some dollars like of all i think this is the eve of probably the next big marketing gold rush kieran i'm showing some of what the early mock ups that opening ai has release of what these ads are going to look like and they're going to be very contextual ads in the chat gp experience and they're even gonna hand off to kind of a transaction experience it seems like within open ai which is super wild and the early rumors on that kip is this is like early early internet rumors that the model is going to take a percentage of that transaction versus an auction model have you heard that and maybe explain i have heard that the information i think might have ins that's coming there's been a few twitter accounts that have ins that's happening we won't know until opening eye actually has this out in the wild so no idea that's just pure speculation but what we do know is kinda of what these ads are gonna look like they gave us some basic principles to kieran that independent of the answer that users are gonna have choice control of how their data is used that that these ads are gonna add long term value to their platform these is kind of like the principles that they're building around i think what's really important here here though to understand why we're so excited and why this is the next big marketing gold rush you have to take a trip down memory and one of the biggest moments in history for so many businesses is when google launched ads in google search and i have a wild story to tell you kieran it's actually about the guy in the uk so there's a guy simon nixon mh and he had an accounting degree and in the early nineties he started publishing a magazine for accountants and he was earning about ten thousand pounds a month pretty nice living but then he realized that the internet was gonna transform his market and he launched money supermarket dot com and by two thousand two he was doing thirteen point six million pounds a week what's really crazy is he built this entire media business off of google ads and advertising on google and at its peak right before it ipo he was spending thirty nine pence and getting a pound back constantly and what's wild is that he was running over half of all the price comparison for like these financial companies in the uk and what's crazier is after the ipo he was worth over seven hundred million dollars and today his net worth is over two billion dollars adwords entrepreneur which is incredible for really just building a business on top of the early days of adwords he was able to become a billionaire look if you're thinking about capitalizing on the chat gp ads gold rush here's what you need to know first before you can advertise in this space you need to understand how to actually show up in ai engines that's where answer engine optimization comes in our team at hubspot put together an early signs guide that breaks down exactly how you can optimize for ai powered discovery it's the same strategies we're using to appear in ai get it right now click the link in the description now let's get back to the show there was two ad forms google launched back in the day i think paid ads was they're more successful one it was one hundred percent the ones that lasted the longest and has created incredible stories like that there is also adsense and i don't know people remember adsense yeah remind us what that is yeah they launched the ability for content creators to monetize that content by putting in ads right within that content and actually adsense is a little more similar to what it's going to be like to advertise within chat because you're trying to integrate ads into a chat and here you're trying to integrate ads right into the content and there was a pretty well known guy who was really successful back in the day with adsense jason ka so his very first company he sold i think it maybe was his only company he sold for twenty five million which isn't you know a lot but was a lot back in two thousand and three and so he formed this a network of blogs it was like web blogs and it had all these kinda specialist blogs like these niche blogs and he was able to integrate ads into those blog and i think at one point he was generated a million a year just of adsense his network of blog bought by aol for twenty five million he he went on to famously make a pretty good investment in uber and some other companies but and now host the all in pod but this is how he got started yeah it just shows you being early into these kind of ad forms and ways that you can reach customers that you have not been able to do before there's just this incredible opportunity to like be first and extract the most amount of value we think that there are opportunities with this launch to actually create a whole another generation of success stories like the ones we just share right and we think there are kind of three core gold rush opportunities that are gonna happen as we get ads coming in a chat cheap tea and probably longer term a lot of the other ai search platforms so kieran i think the first and most obvious opportunity is the fact that we know from our experience do a marketing and hubspot that when somebody discovers our company in chat gp and comes to our website they become a customer at like ten thirteen x higher a rate than like old traditional google search engines right and so if you believe that that same crazy jump in conversion rate is going to also be true for advertisers compared to people advertising on google search then there's probably gonna be an arbitrage opportunity where you're gonna be able to buy ads much lower than the money you're gonna be able to make on them very similarly to the story i shared about the company in the uk and how was able to basically have a really high return on his ad spend and i think a big reason for that is the google adwords model for the most part has traditionally been based upon keywords so i try to figure out keywords you're using and searching for and then i can bid and show an ad on those keywords and someone clicks on the ad and buys a product the reason that chat cb in these ai assistants are going to be a better more qualified form of advertising is you're kind of advertising based upon intent and so the system is able to like with someone and then figure out actually this person really does want to buy this product or their service like they kind of qualify themselves and so by the time they see the ad they're already in die in motion and they can actually go click and buy that thing and so you actually should see broader opportunities because you can have much more intent than keywords so you should see way more ability to do advertising and i know google is moving to intent in their model as well on adwords and you should see better qualified people so you should see it increasing conversion rates and as you said this will normalize and so at some point the conversion rate will be the conversion rate but they will be this opportunity where it's cost are much lower because people are gonna use to the platform and there's ways to like really optimize your ads and then the return on investment you make is gonna be much much higher they completely agree the early adopters of ad products have historically gotten much better rates and been able to build really successful businesses and that's that's opportunity one opportunity two kirin of the gold rush i think it's kind of a derivative of the old adsense model so the adsense model was hey i start a community forum or website or a blog i published information and i throw ads on that and i get a small cut of revenue from that and i just do that at scale and i make a decent amount of money right i think the modern day equivalent of that is gonna be a little different what we are able to do is use engine optimization tools hubspot has one there's lots of them out there we acquired a company called x funnel there's lime dot ai there's there's a bunch of cool quotes then you can look and see what people are prompting chat gp for and then instead of trying to build a media website what you're going to do is vibe code applications mobile apps or desktop apps that you could sell them to solve their various specific problem they have and put ads against those prompts and i think that over the long term a lot of people will be very successful by just running a portfolio of a lot of vibe coded apps that they are then advertising on chat you agree with me karen yeah i think what you're saying is people will use an ae tool so what a tool i to do is upload a bunch of prompts so i can say actually i'm curious is there much demand for this app that i want to do on my dog's health right like i wanna track all of the things in my dog's health and get recommendations and how to keep my dog much much healthier and so i would go to an ee tool and i would say i wonder is there demand for things like this and i would upload a bunch of prompts in the way that people might ask for questions around this or search for it or ask a chatbot for help on that and the ae o two would say here are all the kind of things that a ai assistance like chat here's all the kind of answers it's given back and you would say wow like there's nothing really that great here and so i'm gonna go build the tool and instead of wait into appear organically they'll just buy the ads because my tool is not better than any of the things that chat bts a suggestion and then i can take all of that revenue for myself exactly and i think that is an incredible opportunity for two reasons first one is chat in a lot of instances is still trying to be a pretty good answer engine and there's gonna be a lot of places where it's not providing great answers and you can run ads on those answers and so you probably can build something or create something that is better than the answers it's giving you back and so you will be able to for a time being be the best option and do it instantly because you can do the ad and the second reason is just that is going to be such a new thing that people are doing right so the breadth of things that you can actually go and create apps for create services for and advertise for it's gonna be huge and to get totally saturated like nine hundred million people having conversations creates a lot of opportunity that is really perfectly set and that i think there's gonna be a lot of businesses built on that motion i think there's a third motion in lane of the gold rush that is also kinda similar to the old adsense model in that one of the big opportunities with chat gp is answer engine optimization how you and your brand show up in results when people prompt chat gp here you were just talking about this one of the things kieran that we've learned is a big factor in that is how your branding company shows up across the internet on all the sites chat gp looks at right and sometimes they're looking at reddit sometimes they're looking at customer reviews sometimes they're looking at these third party ranking sites there's all these different sources they're looking for and what's going to happen is that there there's going to be an opportunity to create a lot of ranking review sites for niche industries to help the companies within those industries properly rank organically and so they'll pay for kind of an affiliate marketing placement and what that means is let's say i have a website that ranks the top ten pet groom in every state i'm just making this up right and so those pet groom will pay because some people are going to come to my website and look look for them but they're also gonna pay because when chat is looking to figure out when i ask who's the best pet groom in my area and it knows where i live it will use those listings to come back and return results for me which means there's a big opportunity for the people owning these websites in the future yeah you like you're basically saying that you can run the adsense model today but instead of selling ads on the adsense sensor or selling citations correct i think that's the simplest way to put it look ai tools are everywhere everyone's talking about agents productivity hacks all of it but here's what nobody wants to say most leaders are still drowning and busy work there's no time for the strategic thinking that actually matters on february tenth i'm jumping on a round table with other leaders who are figuring this out how to use ai to buy back hours every week and get back to doing work that moves the needle we're talking about what's actually working what's over hype nonsense and how to carve out space for real strategy join us by clicking the link below and that's the opportunity if you were doing the jason ka play you would have the same blogs and instead of actually putting an integrated in adsense across all of these niche blogs your integration you can pay for these citations and people are probably going that's not allowed because google do frown upon paying for links hasn't really been any information given out in terms of pain for citations and i suspect that it is almost impossible to enforce i think mh pain for links is likely something you can enforce because you can actually see in the patterns that likely someone has mind manufactured this to be much harder in these kind of organic citations a citation is basically within an article within a piece of content someone is recommending in your product there's no link there's no anything you're least to be just say in the words it's or right in the words and the ai engines can pick up in that and say hey this product cited a lot across all these blogs all these websites you must be the best answer for this question and when we explain this i hope that you see that there's like a really massive opportunity because this is the leading edge of a massive consumer behavior change and what we do note kieran is that open is going to be very cautious in rolling these ad products out they wanna get the experience right they don't wanna alienate their users so it's going to be a very gradual process the number one thing you can do because the ads product is not yet out is one prepare which of the three ways we've given you which one of those do you want wanna actually follow and the second is you just need to keep a close pulse on when they start rolling out the ads products so it that you can get access to it and so that's following the show hit like hit subscribe but that's also just continuing to monitor the ever changing world that is chat gp and chat gp ads kieran and what else you got for us anything else on chat gp ads any predictions anything you're particularly excited about or worried about i think this is a really big thing for marketers carriers for all the reasons we discussed and then the one thing we will just mention is because today there is no analytics given to you about anything to do with how your branch shows up in chat it's really hard to understand and if they're gonna have an ads model they're gonna need to be able to have an analytics product and i think that's another big plus for all of us who want to be able to figure out how to get more visibility in these platforms so you're basically saying hey we have these three opportunities to make money and there's a bonus yeah and that bonus is that because chat needs to sell ads and make money and there's big opportunity on that they also need to give you data so that you know what you're paying for and that's gonna just give us a lot more insight as marketers as to how people are using chat gp and how we can better market our products or services through chat gp they have to give you targeting yep and the targeted means that you have to be able to say i wanna target people who are talking about these topics yes and if you're gonna be able to say i wanna target people who are talking about those topics then i suspect you can basically look to see what topics are frequently talked about in your vertical things like that yeah which i think it would be huge i think it's still true yeah i personally very pumped i think they're approaching this in a smart way i know it's kind of a controversial thing to do but i think we also talked many times on the show that it was also felt like an inevitable thing for them to do and that it's going to be regardless a big opportunity for marketers and if it's not a big opportunity for marketers and that means that they kinda don't have product market fit and it's not gonna be that much of a successful business for open ai so marketers incentives and open incentives at least in the short term i think are very aligned and so we've got a big opportunity ahead of us and we will keep you all up today here as we see the these ads out in the wild as we talk to people who are early advertisers we will share those stories here so that you all can learn right along with us and we'll see you real soon on the next episode of marketing against

before we get into today's show here's a quick word from hubspot cutting your sales cycle in half sounds pretty incredible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used breeds hubspot ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results were pretty incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent qualified leads quadrupled and people spit three longer on their landing pages go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow we have just spent the last hour with an agent that we were totally under using and it is blown our mind it is really the best c copilot for marketers tiers and we're gonna show you four incredible use cases use cases that are gonna transform how you think about doing your work we're gonna show you incredible research and may in presentations incredible data visualizations and actual apps all built within the same agent you can get all of these use cases more on this episode of marketing against green everyone on today's show we are gonna show you the world's best market research agent at the moment this is an agent that marketers aren't using enough that doing is gonna give you real insights into how to plan your own marketing how to learn from the competition and just quite frankly how to grow based on learning from the best marketers out there in the world kieran we're here to talk about something very cool the company we're talking about is actually too the first one is man man dot i and man just got acquired by facebook slash meta recently and is gonna become part of the meta family of companies and it's a very good agent and you and i were early early users of man i think like eighteen months ago and it's gotten a lot better but why we're doing this show today is because they just did a partnership with similar web and similar web is one of the leading providers of market data market research specifically marketing performance data on the internet and you can now very easily access this information on man and just tee it up for people why this is gonna be interesting to you i actually think this is probably the best research agent for marketers yes i'm pretty blown away by what you can do with mana that is now connected to some and you're actually gonna give a review of like why what is the data you now have the ability for an agent to run against yes the very first thing i did is just like what data do you have you know what information you're getting from similar web it's got youtube channel data get unique visit data traffic source data bounce rate global rank traffic sources i'm not sure if by what get total visits and get total traffic by country and it breaks them down in terms of what's actually available and so you can get traffic metrics total visits unique visitors bounce rate you can get traffic by geography traffic by sources which you and i know is really really valuable when it comes to marketing where they rank in the overall like traffic of an industry or of the world and like that's pretty cool like you and i have used similar web for a long time full disclosure i'm on the board of similar web am a shareholder of similar web but i just thought this was really cool and wanted to do this because i love how accessible this partnership makes it i will say kieran the other disclosure is it consumes a lot of credits a lot of credits it's not cheap it's not like dollars it's like tens of dollars to do these yeah so i just wanna make sure that when you're out there i think you're getting thousands of dollars of value but you need to know like one of these queries is probably like five ten twenty dollars yeah it's not like running a cloud prompt or something like that it consumes real amount of credits i two things that show those two things cost me a lot of credits yeah this one is kinda of mind blowing to me actually because there's two parts of this because i'm gonna introduce a little bit of our old friend notebook l as well we'd love notebook l go google so basically the first one i started with was to show you you can do a whole mckinsey and i know this is really a tired hey this can all replace mckinsey level consultants but this is actually is a kinda mckinsey level report using some of the web data specifically forced cmos and i wanna kinda show you two parts of this and so it creates a pretty incredible pdf and so it has a whole breakdown of competitive intelligence on hubspot and it really does pull out some pretty interest things and so what we're showing here is the report it built based upon all of hubspot data so it will give me a pretty great overview here of their traffic and audience intelligence but look here it kinda talks about seasonality it talks about some of the overarching action trends it actually builds you these charts it's really good i think you're getting a lot of value for the money here like this is very good quality it's really good quality it shows you this audience profile so i'm blend similar web data with external data it can pull from the web so that's the other thing right you can actually blend in the similar web data it gives you the traffic source breakdown so again it builds this from similar web data shows you what traffic is coming to hubspot it gives you the kind of channel mix here and it tells you how they're trending and it gives you like actual context on our strategy what the strategy is this is incredible by the way to get a a breakdown of anyone's marketing strategy for like ten bucks is pretty incredible real quick what we're showing you with man and similar web is basically a superpower but it's easy to miss the nuances our team turned our entire workflow into a free ai toolkit it gives you the exact prompt sequence we use to pull three hundred thousand dollars mckinsey level intel in about sixty seconds if you wanna see exactly how much your competitors are spending and turn that into a board presentation ready deck without doing the manual labor you'll love our toolkit get it right now click the link in the description now let's get back to the show look at this paid advertising intelligence it will actually give you a breakdown of our entire strategy it goes into add copy a messaging oh that's so good it actually breaks down our search strategy talks about the different ways that we acquire traffic it talks about the different referrals i went through this and there is so much incredible information in here and right at the end think it actually gives you actionable recommendations if you were the cmo what would you change and i'm gonna show you this actual recommendation in a pretty mind blown way this is a bunch of text right yeah now it's a good report if i wanna impress my ceo and i'm the cmo then i would probably want a more visual version of this so i go into notebook yep and i simply just create a notebook with this report and ask it to create a presentation alright so you created a new notebook a notebook m you uploaded that report we were just looking at and you just said build a presentation build the presentation love prepared to like have your mind blown i am oh let's go so look at this right so it basically has a competitive intelligence report for hubspot gives you a breakdown of our overarching business mh tells you that market share revenue projection year on year growth tells you where our traffic rank is starts to build like this the financial paradox operational success versus investor fear talks a little bit about us as a public company the inbound juggernaut own the top of the funnel talks about the monthly blog visits authority global it so good how we build a content mode breaks that all down in a really nice way they see what we've done the last decade is so easy i know i that right look at this seo blueprint topic clusters and funnel coverage really good man like it pulled all of this from that one report talks about how we did this paid defense and ecosystem referrals paid defense strategy branded keywords competitor ads ad messaging then talks about this referral ecosystem we have so it pulls us apart like where we're getting referral traffic from mh talks about the audience profile competitive position and own the easy and powerful sweet spot heck at this it's so good enterprise features ease of use we're here that this is so good the feature gap where the battle is one and lost ease of use integrated crm enterprise ab start price like it's just totally my so good how good this is so here's the recommendations by the way the move up market campaign developed target and marketing for enterprise create case studies showcase complex use cases mh aggressive ai monetization shift messaging from we have ai to ai delivers roi price cost reduction international expansion it picked up on the fact that it feels we are saturated for search in english speaking markets but things actually there's still a bunch of growth in a non english market and then this ends with this nice inflection point house hubspot has won the s and smb b war the next battle is for the enterprise two five the next decade helps hubspot has to pivot from glue and wider to grow and taller that's pretty cool it's an interesting strategy don't agree with all of it but it's pretty cool no but like as a first pass yeah i mean you would shot at this you would shot at all this one shot you didn't edit the report and then you didn't edit the presentation so it's how quickly you can get from a single prompt to a first draft that you can start to like iterate and improve upon one hundred percent so i think this is what's crazy is that market research like this used to take forever and be way more expensive yeah i think it's funny how one of the things we said is that this is expensive it's only expensive in ai research terms yeah only ai research team it's not expensive in the real world in the real world now it's massively cheap compared to the real world there are a few other things i did one of the things that i would say that's simple that anybody can do that i thought was pretty cool kieran is once you have all this traffic data you could basically model and approximate a lot of stuff it oh i like that a lot actually which is really cool so this is what i did i said hey i want you to look at the pay traffic sources found on similar web for salesforce dot com monday dot com and hubspot dot com want you to break down the traffic it sources evan use cost benchmarks for those channels to estimate the direct response advertising budget for each of those companies if you're a marketer the questions you always get asked or how much money should we be spending on marketing how much is our competitor spending on marketing and are we getting a good return on the money we're spending on marketing and double all of those if it's about advertising specifically right right and so this is what it it basically runs through it collects the data and it kieran it's not just looking at traffic it's looking at bounce rate and everything to calculate what the budget actually should be it goes through gets a bunch of research gets the traffic data and then it shows you that it's actually looking for benchmark and so it's actually seeing what the benchmarks is per these channels for cost and so you could go back and build a spreadsheet or build a model if you had more detailed information and cost that you had but here here's the key findings monday leads with an aggressive acquisition strategy of a hundred and sixty two million dollars with ninety two percent focus on paid search salesforce maintains a conservative brand focused approach for fifty three point five million dollars hubspot follows the balanced strategy with forty five point six million and here's the breakdown i know some of these numbers they're all a little low relative to the real world but they're directional right yeah and all these charts are belt by mana right yeah it actually builds these kinda charts for you it's just just incredible so good right and so like all of these things you can visually bring to life and send to folks in such a small amount of time everyone will we right back to the show but first me tell you about a podcast that i love it's podcast called i digress it is hosted by my friend troy sand and i digress is great it's got thirty minute episodes and the podcast is all about helping you eliminate complexity complications and confusion in your business it's really heavy in frameworks and strategies to help you scale and sustain your success and you can listen to all the episodes of ad digress anywhere you get your podcast i was actually really impressed by at visualizing the data and how quickly it could do that it's very good at data visualization and and kieran what i found interesting and you kinda talk about this in your chat gp joke video you can go back and look at the v three video in that ai wants to keep you in ai and so it's keeping these follow up questions my biggest hot take here is that most of suggested follow ups for marketing aren't that good yep like generate a new chart comparing the percentage of total traffic from paid channels for salesforce monday and have hubspot it's not that interesting analyze the strategic implications of monday dot com's heavy reliance on paid search versus salesforce focus on display ads that's not that interesting what i wanna do is dig in on like specific bounce rates per channel and figure out where the arbitrage is against the competition like this is where i think being a crafts person and really knowing yeah to be an in this case marketing really changes the game because i just it feels like it ten x is the best marketers is one of my big takeaways yeah i think this is the thing if you use it and you don't really have clear ideas of how to use that data you'll do some interest and stuff could you'll ask man to suggest ways to use it but really the best suggestions come from you i had this one here that i thought was like really good so one of the things you would want to know in a lot of markets is when could you actually spend money in a much more economical way on paid advertising oh that's really neat so what this one here did and this one cost me a lot of credits so this one here took a fintech and it went through and it finds the biggest ten spend and fintech to see because if you're spending in fintech then you're spending against everyone in fintech for those eyeballs and so your costs are going to be inflated by everyone who spends money within that market and so what it does here is i'm trying to look for the peak months of spend and the trough months of spend because during the trough months of spend i can actually spend probably more because the cost will go down because for some reason these brands would spend less and there's reasons for that so first of it pulled up ten biggest like fintech companies and then it gets me the peak months right so it actually tells me these are the months that they spend the most amount of money and it will tell me why on here and then these are the months they spend the least amount of money the average spend across the ten companies they're seasonal burst right so ins intuit is spending a lot because of tax season you consistent high spend paypal and stripe volatility driven coinbase base which is i think is actually pretty interesting i wanna know why that's super interesting and then minimal spend are kinda of the more traditional brands and then it says like strategic example counter cycle windows offer a better roi when those brands spend less peak cost periods reduce your budget and efficiency gains but i think it's about this it was cool kieran is it tells you about like how much spending in those peak times is actually affecting your budget was saying like twenty to twenty five percent reduction in your budget to spin on those peak times and this is one of those things like the ai is giving all this information but you had to know that this was the angle right you have to know what you're trying to get towards like this is the perfect blend of like i'm a good marketer and i can make really much better decisions with it this is actually a really good chart oh this is a really good chart shows you that the above average months and the below average months so basically what you wanna do is go contra seasonal spending the below average month to get leverage then eventually you'll force people to start spending those months and then you could go back to the other months right yeah yeah right that's the game that we're talking about play i'm definitely gonna pull some interesting charts anybody watching this video i think kieran has been asked to do a competitive analysis report as a marketer do agree that exactly yes so i wanted to see how man and similar web we're doing on competitive intelligence this is a classic use case for market research right so using data from some web do a competitive analysis hubspot dot com and salesforce dot please how it strengths and areas for improvement i want to make hubspot dot com better so i tell that like i'm trying to make the website better okay something you and i talk a lot about so like how can we make the website better and work better for us right and so what's cool it does tell you how any credits it's going to use and everything so i told it to proceed so you're not blindly spinning credits it goes through does a bunch of thinking and gives me some really cool insights and we could go through and talk about these insights and give a cool rapport and graphs but then i was can you just make a slide deck of these findings and do you wanna see the slide deck here oh wow actually this is just as good you're ready this is literally oh live blowing you're like i thought it was cute you were putting it in and notebook look l yeah yeah i know i didn't even think you about it quality the over quantity scale disadvantage salesforce attracts a hundred and sixty nine percent more visitors demonstrated demonstrate significant scaled advantage engagement excellence hubspot achieves superior user engagement with a bounce rate of twenty two point fifty six percent compared to salesforce is thirty five point seven three percent our rankings set declined there's a referral opportunity the salesforce commands more traffic it's pretty good that's so good this wouldn't be a board level presentation because it's really more about the website than like total business strategy but this is as good as notebook l or jan spark or any of the other i think it's using nano banana okay because remember man and a lot of these agents are ag they're using the best model for the best use case yeah slash cost and so it's creating this kinda all in one experience scale paid advertising to boost visibility like it's pretty good and these were prompts and like if you and i jammed on this for like twenty minutes with man it would be very good oh you could make it amazing it gives you a ninety day action plan q and a like and i gave nothing about the format like what covered did the deck this is just like what it thinks is right i think that's something we're kinda showing how impressive it is with this similar web data i think that is like one of the things that makes you unique similar data is at an incredible set of data especially for marketers but it is an all round agent it can like pull in information from the web it can reason you're showing that it can actually create incredible presentations it can actually can create incredible graphics what we showed as well the data visualization i'm incredibly impressed by it i think i've been under using it it's a really good product that i think we both have been under using well one of the things i think it's really important if you're watching the show today you're a founder your ceo your marketer you can have the smartest individual model in the world it's only good for certain things so these aggregate agents are really good and then if you wanna take these aggregate agents to the next level that's what context is about and i think one of things you and i believe karen is that the best ai is not the smartest ai it's the ai that has the most context and this is an example of hey we've all the similar web context in man now and there's bunch of cool stuff we can do for marketing can i show you one other thing that i did karen next do that's leaving a bang i like that this podcast is often just you and i like show what we have done yeah this is a good version of the podcast because like it's literally just you and i re educating ourselves from an agent that we're going to start to use all the time totally okay so this is the rest of the thread i actually started the show with which was oh this is the type of data you can get so one of the things i've always been fascinated by kieran and i i still can't do unfortunately is i always wanna know like what are the top one hundred or one thousand fastest growing websites and what are they doing that i should be doing yeah and unfortunately you can't do that but you can do it by industry yeah and so what i did is i was like okay just give me the top ten saas websites by traffic growth and it goes asking me the credits yeah yeah yeah shows me what those are and this is not by total visits by growth rate growth rate very specific because this is really interesting it's very interesting and so it gives us this really cool report which is awesome it shows what these companies are and kieran i think what you're gonna be impressed with is some of the observation post pandemic normalization totally agree ai power tools are thriving enterprise versus smb it tells you the methodology and then it's showing you like who the winners are and these results suggest consumer facing saas platforms and ai productivity tools it also gives you a csv of the actual data too kieran so that you can go do stuff with it works as while but you can go through and i had to do a more detailed analysis than that first one and like how are these companies growing product led growth searches acquisition paid channels they give us an actionable playbook of what to go and do and that would be cool and like i can show you what this is and it's like breaking down all of the playbook and like oh this is shopify playbook and what you should do wow but you don't wanna be better than that kieran is i had mana go and break down three different homepage designs for hubspot dot com based on these lessons and it mocked them all up oh my god so so there's three different he's a nun of an anna yeah a homepage mocks here and some of the font and stuff isn't great but you can kinda see doctor built them yeah yeah of course oh my god this is insane and you know stop losing deals disconnected tools hubspot all one platform unites you're marketing so it's doing the copy it needs with customer proof actually think there's a lot of this homepage that it design that i really like i can't believe that it i coded all this up this is actually really impressive it's really good it's kinda doing well like lovable a replica these things would do on the web page now you know why meta acquired them yeah i thought these feature call boxes it did for marketing automation nice little hover function yeah it's really good and cured this is just one of the options it coded up for us but what's really cool is the speed of which you can take these insights of like oh let's go research what really good companies are doing let's learn about what those really good companies wearing and then let's apply them directly to what we're doing and by the way here you can then go and publish this to share it with people immediately i have a really good idea i won't say that likes i'm gonna build it and then we'll do a show in it i have a really good idea to do something and give away to our listeners like something we can build i love that i would help them a lot and give it away you heard it hear first this is super impressive impressed hit subscribe if you want with kids about to drops soon how good was that i think the main question as we wrap up here is what the f do i cancel so i can pay for this one because it is becoming un unwavering the amount of money i am spending on ai tools and i know they're also so good i kinda feel bad i i feel like i can't not have them all but like this kind of can do so much you are a total managed d tractor and now you are like hey i wanna be a top tier man subscriber and i wanna be a top tier man subscriber i wanna jam on some of this stuff i am i'm going to try to build a little freemium app use mana something you just did actually but put into a little app i'm give it away trial listeners on a future show so hit subscribe if you wanna get that from kieran so i i think the big thing here the big takeaways from today today's show is context to where ai agents are the best and manage with the similar web data context now unlocks some really high value high ease use cases for marketers right and if you're a marketer and what we showed resonate you should go and build and try some of these the second thing is these all in one agents that are using multiple models are really valuable because it allows you to switch type modalities there where you can go from research to design to building all in one thread which is really really powerful and you're using the best model for the job and i think those two things are really important takeaways and if you go and you use this or you've been using the man similar web integration and you've been building cool stuff drop us a comment we'd love to hear what you've learned you've been building here here in anything else before we close out today today's show no i think this is an incredible new tool that maybe most marketers are sleeping on and so i think it's a tool worth add to your r i think this announcement really flew under the radar mana is flown under the radar and similar web i think quite frankly flies under the radar sometimes and this is like i think now should be in most marketers go get it alright another thank you everyone hit that light hit that subscribe we'll see you real soon on marking against the cream

alright kip i think we're gonna come together today to talk a little bit about the potential death of the internet and just what is going on i've never felt this worried about marketing it might life there's some war signs in terms of how we are bringing all of these ai agents life and what we're doing to the real value of the internet the internet brought people together in really helpful is tell met my wife it was awesome where worried that the next generation of the internet might be driving people apart and that we might be going too far right before we get into today's show here's a quick word from hubspot cutting your sales cycle in half sounds pretty incredible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used beats hubspot ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results were pretty incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent qualified leads quadrupled and people spent three times longer on their landing pages go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow alright kip i'm scrolling in x today and to my surprise there's a new launch of a marketing agent that's got a lot of negative reaction interest and i think one of the reasons it's got a bunch of negative reaction is when people look at it there's two real takeaways that people are having first why marketing sucks is this really what marketers do oh my god these people are gonna ruin the internet and then the second one is the ai is really going to ruin the internet so i wanna give you a little bit of a introduction to this and get your take yep please there's a company called astra and they have a launch and it's basically a marketing agent that allows you to do common at scale so it will go off and it will say hey like you're interested in this and your audience are interested in these things and it creates a bunch of agents and then goes comments for you in linkedin it makes the comments on reddit it and it goes and actually gets a bunch of comments so you can go and and do it scale and when you actually watch it if you're not a marketer you're like jesus is this marketing because is this what marketers do this is brutal i watch this is horrible what are you all doing with your time it's basically like automating spam yeah are we paying marketer what might pay my marketers is this what they're doing they just without spamming reddit linkedin mindless common on all these threads as someone who has being like a victim of ai common and scale on linkedin i have to be really honest i do hate this use of ai i've very very vocal about that and there's also the problem that if we go to a world where ai is creating content ai is distributing content ai is common on its own content then we are in a dystopian future where the real essence of the web that really helped mark i think get elevated and create value for people is being rodent and killed and you and i do not want that to happen well the second you outsourced conversations to robots completely the robots are just gonna go back and forth each and then it's just going to become unusable to humans right because you're just gonna have these competing robots saying what they think and oh okay well this means nothing now now now there's this whole threat of stuff that fundamentally means nothing of the ai starts to thread and it's like hello humans i have this question about this product service and then another agent comes in comments and goes hello human i that's a very interesting question and that's what they wear is so why do people really hate this first of all i think that this is a mid market tool i think the problem is this is the lowest level stuff yeah we're trying to talk about like why did this have such a negative reaction right correct and i think it's because like this is not actually marketed to be on we do this is not how i've ever thought about my role or have ever spent any time doing this right i think do we have people to participate in conversations in community yes that is part of your brand that is not something you outsource they also did something that i would really recommend them that they wanna go down this path not to do and i've also talked about it publicly i don't think a great brand message right now is replace jobs that's what they're leading with no it's not we're not gonna get excited by your brand right like i don't think that's an exciting comment but this person here this is maybe one i would argue it's not even one percent of what a real market does yeah it's like one one thousandth of a real marketer and i'd actually don't even know that it's a real marketer this is not marking this one here right the dead internet theory is coming through this is kinda what we talked about what does that mean what's the dead internet theory it means that all this spam is just going to blow up over the internet and the internet's gonna become unusable let's just have one more comment and jump into it so i understand this is the world we're heading toward little we can do about it pros and cons i'm just devastated that our online experiences are gonna be ninety percent ai generated and it'll be harder to distinguish from human generated content to serious loss i think this is what we're talking about the essence markets is the essence of the issue is how we can create and craft things that humans are interested in and what we're seeing there were tools that are telling you to and again i actually would not even put common in what marketers do no but let's just say comments for the sake of this conversation is like a tiny part of what a marketer crafts participate outsourcing the entire thing to ai feels like completely the wrong thing to do and i just don't think this is the kind of things that marketers should be doing look ai content is everywhere right now and most of it is total garbage it's low effort generic and frankly obvious but ai isn't the problem bad prompts are we built a system with twenty prompts that keep your content human idea creation creation distribution optimization the whole thing get it right now click the link in the description now let's get back to the show you shared this with me ahead of the show and you and i both we used a lot of back and forth on whatsapp about how ridiculous and wrong a lot of this is before we kinda talk about that we just wanna show you the first right let's give a little bit of the launch video and again this is just our take of marketing and to give you a little bit of like what our core beliefs are and we're not trying to like rag on the founder or company here yeah it's no disrespect to the founder who made this video it's more about the underlying premise of what she's talking about the product doing is just we could fundamentally screw you're looking at a network of ai agents working together so that one person can outperform a team of ten let me show you how it works using a team a tiff is the founder of capital stack investor outreach app with no customer but we're gonna use astra to get him his first ten so i will say this product is definitely aimed at early stage finder yes early stage failed i wanna make get you here that it's like really focused on early stage founders who do not really have any marketers and have no real resources i'll ask ash to pull fundraising post from reddit and linkedin and draft comments that drive leads to his product now watch what happens next i cannot even say how much i despise comments i know i've said that all this year common on posts is a deeply deeply human thing to do it's like part of the real essence of the web is bringing folks together so they can con on all of these different shared interests and i just feel like it's such a horrible dystopian thing to automate as like an agent create content and an agent comments in the content well i think that's the issue it's not just like oh well i have this idea and i want this agent to go and post it for him it's like the agents coming up with the this idea it's posting it and then other agents are gonna keep doing it i'm calling what you're gonna have is just like an endless thread of linkedin comments or reddit comments from all the companies using this automation source and it's gonna be completely unusable you already have this in linkedin by the way oh i'm linkedin a lot i like posting content on linkedin and i hate the agent comments they've that's actually decreased a little bit over time because everyone got sick of them and we're like calling them out but i'm gonna keep going here first the ai team link kicks off the task and spends up a full team of specialist it pulls everything it knows about a teeth his voice his product his story next two research agents dive one uses reddit its api for recent fundraising posts and the other browse linkedin for the same then the content lead steps in not to write but a brief two expert copies i think the research stuff here is actually cool use of ai for a busy founder research in which are like good communities to participate in research and you know what are good topics that your audience are interested in all pretty good uses of ai we've been a huge fan of ai for research right it's yeah i that's research should be spam me stuff that's the problem and we're gonna show a a couple of examples that in a very future show of how we would use a version of research to do actually really incredible marketing no these aren't generic ai writers they know what lands what converts and exactly how to sound like teeth cause these are not generic ai writers this is what lands and what's convert you don't fucking and land and convert things in reddit and linkedin this is like community engagement community management this is not you will get black from reddit if you're trying to convert people in reddit comments la plus read as a community but i guess what i'm saying is if you jump into a red thread and you're like writing conversion yeah like this is like the core problem humans i am here answer your question i'm gonna give you this three thing that you think is awesome i will tell you that i think i have spent more time in hydro to craft content with ai assistance in any human possible over the past year i think you and i would never recommend have an ai autonomously create content on your behalf create a first draft that you add to make better yeah as a c writer or an editor it's great yeah not as a you can one hundred percent tell an ai has crafted content dean human sounding comments the kind that lies to the top it's just like human sales comment why we shouldn't have to have human sale comments why do we have like i don't know are we getting excited about this and who can make these things sound like a human it's a community that is the essence of the when the essence of marketing and build your tribe have a community in this world you doesn't need even need to sound like a human because it's all gonna be bots just talking to each other it's gonna be bots talking to bots create the content bots talk to each other it's just what's then what is that point but we're not done yet we're going for perfection let's head to the review studio which is your control center as the human at the center of an ai marketing team everything the agents created is waiting here in your inbox and you can efficiently process all of the content in your editor you know this last paragraph ends abruptly let's ask the chat to tie it back to the opening no god i think that's like kinda cool actually you can have an inbox agents but you then tell the agent through it a command line to change the content you do not need to learn content to participate in the community should just participate naturally crafting content is gonna be a time to skill to learn to not outsource that to agents and have agents craft your content on your bow i count i cannot emphasize that enough and cure i guarantee you could have this agent write a hundred comments and you could go write a hundred comments yourself and the engagement conversion rate on what you're gonna do is can be so much higher but this isn't marketing i guess i know the whole point is like if this is what we believe marketing is then we fundamentally them and don't really understand what marketing truly is and marketing is not like how do i comment at scale across lots of communities marketing is like how do you build a tribe how do you like deeply understand how do i get something talking about me how do i do something remarkable do i be the thing should be worthy of remark because i have done something other than like ask an ai bought to go automate service and if you're a busy founder build your brand like we've talked about personality let growth like actually build your brand if you are not a good content creator have a really great content creator talk to you understand your points of view of things like your takes and things and craft that integrate content do not have an agent do that on your behalf it just these things will not stand the test of time and i think the thing that got us fired up is like the research part cool but if we really believe the future is going to be a bunch of agents create a content and common in each other's content then like we may as well just opt out of old this yeah everyone we right back to the show but first let me tell you about a podcast that i love it's podcast called i digress it is hosted by my friend troy sand and i digress is great it's got thirty minute episodes and the podcast is all about you eliminate complexity complications and confusion in your business it's really heavy in frameworks and strategies to help you scale and sustain your success and you can listen to all the episodes of eye digress anywhere you get your podcast what is the future then well the future is going to be similar to what happened to stack overflow like stack overflow used to be an incredible place where people did ask questions and people did answer questions yeah give everybody a little background about what stack overflow is so that there's context around this so stack overflow is a community for developers it was like the biggest of its time it had a ton of incredible knowledge there you used to go there ask question get it answered people participated like a real community and then chat ingested all of that information and you could get it through ai and then it kills the community and that's bad for ai because there's no more content being created that it can actually train on so it's actually bad for the ai but it's really bad for the web because now you have a really valuable thing that used to exist not exist anymore so imagine this tool it becomes the ubiquitous tool of how we do marketing what happens to reddit you have agents creating the threads and agents common on the threads i'm sure reddit actually have some ways to actually figure out over time what's being automated and kill all those things but like this is not a fun future right this is first all i don't believe that this is marketing i believe that just is calm this is not marketing skill and the second thing is i don't know if this is what we should spend our time trying to do i don't think automated comments with ai is a valuable use of ai it is the lowest form of anything that you could do to automate it's just like automating something that should not be automated if you don't have time to participate in read it you shouldn't participate in read it if you don't have time to show up as yourself in these communities you shouldn't show up in these communities right like that would be my take on it i don't know how you feel about that but i just don't think that this is a good direction for marketing tools to go and i also think it paid marketing in a really light it paints market and is like oh this is what marketers do they sit there all day trying to get as many comments as they can on communities right and just try to do it at scale i don't think that's even a good view i don't wanna be associated with this do you know what i don't see anything to do in my job in a tool like that again i'm not trying to ride on the founders but i just don't think this is how we as marketers show up and do great work yeah this is not about that product or that video that video is an example of what could go really wrong and what could fundamentally just make marketing ineffective and not really exist as a profession and that's not it feel like you and i have spent our whole lives doing marketing and we really love it and we don't wanna see it go down in this really bad path and also kieran has there ever been a company in the world that you know of that is like automated their storytelling and outreach completely and actually built a real brand and actually not been seemed as not like the pretty comm spam now you don't build a brand that way i guess if you're like a small business and you're just trying to sell some affiliate products and you're like hey i just wanna mix some dollars then you know maybe automating some of this stuff at crazy scale is like fine because you're right in a couple of years but if you wanna build a real long lasting brand you have to show up you have to participate pay you have to have personality you have to craft things people are interested in can you use ai to assist you in doing these things yeah yep but if you're gonna outsource your marketing this again this isn't marketing and this is common if you're gonna outsource but participate in communities to ai i think we've misunderstood what the value of marketing on the web inherently is so for example i don't know when it's gonna come out but you and i just recorded a show with pj j ace who is this awesome creative and uses ai video tools to build amazing commercials and tell stories for brands to me that's an amazing example of using ai because he's got this really great story that he can now tell faster cheaper and more contextual ways because of this new technology right but they are still crafting and making this beautiful story it's just being told without the need of doing a huge production shoe in all of these like slow and expensive things like that's amazing this is the opposite of that and a lot of the technology and marketing is the opposite of that which is like i wanna outsource my marketing thinking and i don't wanna have to do or really think about marketing i just want to like messaging have people that a small fraction will respond back to me you know who does that and spam like that's the business model for like the terrible spam out there and it's like do you wanna go to bed at night like feeling that way about yourself right i don't no yeah like in red at you're turning up when the comment is hello i am a prince i am stuck at the airport could you imagine going home and telling your daughter look you're like oh yeah i had to set up my sixteenth rented account today because the first fifty docking have been black ball and i i've got five proxy servers because they banned me across all of these ip addresses like come come on you're sending in the dinner and you're like what do you do all you know i'm i create videos for hollywood i trailers i craft things what do you do oh i like i designed fashion catwalk walks for all these incredible things what do you do well i'm a marketer wow like what what you do well today i created sixty agents and they all commented on things of linkedin and reddit that's pretty cool i was like leave i contributed to the downfall of the internet but in all seriousness it's a concern that you and i are laughing but we're recording the show because we actually are genuinely concerned yeah i i want ai and the way i talk about it and you talk about it and we talk about it online is to be a renaissance from marketers to be crafts people yes explain that explain what that means so that people really understand what that means i would say marketers like pj is a good example he is a true domain expert on that video like he crafts incredible videos that are engaging that you wanna watch but he uses ai tools to be able to do that in a shorter amount of time so he can craft more things hey he can craft more things to to cost list it takes less time he's less dependent upon other people he's more autonomous and so we can actually really craft more things of value for his customers so if you take that tool a better use for that finder would be a tool that offload a lot of the other admin and mundane thinks he has to do so he can actually get the time to truly participate in these communities because that's a valuable thing to do and i think what we want to see is market tiers as crafts people who can craft more things that people are interested in consumer will find valuable and the ai is assistant in the background to do those things to actually allow the marketer to do those things and be more autonomous and known them and craft more things right we don't want to see the ai just automate a bunch of like things gonna automate average at scale right i think what we're saying here karen is that everybody out there has a choice if you're watching the show you have a choice you can either think about living in florence italy in the thirteen fourteen fifteen hundreds and being a part of the renaissance and what happened in the renaissance is new tools made it possible to build and craft new things or to craft things at a bigger and more interesting scale and that's the world i wanna live in what we talked about today and what we're worried about is like the industrial revolution for marketing like factories just making everything the exact same and just automating every last little bit so that there's no craft and no personality and nothing of remark that exists and i know the industrial revolution side of this is going to seem tempting and interesting at times it is the wrong path and it is the past path of short term gains for very long term failure and i think ke and you and i have thought about this a lot and we are fully committed to the renaissance and actually i think you and i personally feel like we're in thoughts we feel like we are making and building and crafting more than we ever have and see the potential for marketing if that's what actually happens right i think true craft has imperfections ai does not know how to do those things i think you should celebrate those imperfections and how you bring into life in your video content content creation craft things i'm sticking to that path and if we get beat by the automakers then i think there's bigger problems in market and dying i think the internet is dying yeah look if this happens the internet doesn't exist yeah in in a valuable way if we live in a world where agents create the content agents distribute the content then agents common in the content after reading the content the human is going to opt out because that stuff is just going to be garbage and you see it on instagram there was a real problem in instagram where people are like i just this stuff is garbage i don't want to be here anymore people want to work with your company or you not because you just have a good product at a fair price they wanna work because you believe something because they think you're gonna be a good partner because they wanna be a part of something bigger than themselves and you can't communicate any of those things through like automated comments and automated content creations and robot stock and a robots and that's not what we wanna have right so please join us at safe mark and please join us on the renaissance spat and that's craft please please and just go into this next era of marketing doing the right thing we need you to do it we are gonna do everything we can to do it but we do not want the future to look like the gl we got today

today you're gonna learn how to make an amazing ai video ad from don draper of ai ads himself pj j ace you've probably seen this david beckham product video go viral on instagram watch by hundreds of millions of people he is gonna show us what the future ai video holds but more importantly it's gonna show you how to make remarkable ads and videos for your business using ai tools today let's get to today's show before we get into today's show here's a quick word from hubspot cutting your sales cycle in half sounds pretty incredible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used breeds helps spots ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results were pretty incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent qualified leads quadruple and people spit three times longer on their landing pages go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow alright everybody we're having a fun show today we're talking a about ai video ads trailers with who i think is the don draper of the pj pj we're here i really do think you are like the don draper the modern day mad in of building creative with a ai and i think you deserve the title yeah i'm super excited to be here that's the name for and we just talked about this pj pjs and yeah you have like this hollywood name you're making some cool stuff but you're here today and you're gonna be to defy the ai video magic and show us like what goes into it the process how people can actually really do this that they don't have to just be you to do it you obviously have a lot more experience in reps but anybody can kinda pick it yeah i made a number of these videos in like two days in my underwear which is the same that i'm wearing right now i love it okay so before anything else for folks who don't know who you are i think we should show one of the videos so they get a baseline for it i know probably the video you're most known for is an ad you did for the nba finals for the prediction market ka maybe kick us off there great indiana gonna win baby we're in florida asking people what they put their money off i'm in on indiana got that dog in them we'll go up this one i think we'll hit twenty dollar how many hurricanes do you think we'll have this year so good well she let legally trade on anything anywhere in the us okay k so good well how many people pj did that take and then like in the old world had many people would have put that add together because you've been in this world prior to ai and then how many did it take to do that one yeah my business partner and all our staff and stuff tell us dude stop telling people this took you two days and your underwear all as it did it's also ads so like because now our our ads like and we work with like now very very big fortune in our companies and like the reason now they take over a month and whatnot is it's like the approvals process it's like script writing but like ka team and like massive credit to them they were like it's in two days we've seen a couple of your viral videos just yolo this thing and like send to us make sure it's like three hours before the game starts that's melt why i actually think that maybe most companies should take a leaf out of their book well and i think what's interesting about the culture video two pj is that it was also an ad that only could have been made with ai because it was such in context to the two teams playing and in the moment of the culture versus like oh well we're gonna do this nba finals ad and we're gonna shoot it three months beforehand we have no idea who's playing and so it's gonna kinda be generic which is like the other thing that struck me is it gave you the ability to make this like unique ad and tell a story in a way that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to tell it yep exactly it's speed that's that's the beauty of it you know like so i grew up in florida and this is a love letter to my home state it's like florida know florida when i watched that ad for sure i all these characters existed at some point in my childhood you've got like the old man with like the big pot belly you know in like miami club and his like you know entourage of ladies and hair curl you've got the guy in the farm at the eggs you've got you know a grandma selling like man tea meat on the side of the road like all legendary childhood informative core memories for me okay so pj you build this ad for ka in a couple of days in your underwear because you know that's what you do when you're making eye videos and that seemed to me like it just started a wave for you in your life but also just for the movement of hey ai can make real prime time ad creative work that can be seen by hundreds of millions of people right and so i think you follow this up with like an ad for one of david beckham brands right yep yep let me show you that here what are you willing to do to be the best what if it all came down to a simple choice red or green red you can feel it feel energized performing your best developed by world leading scientists including nasa to help you live with more vitality energy and longevity sure you could choose green but just because it's green doesn't mean it's good for you this is your chance for peak performance you task the best choose the best that one to me it's really impressed us if you look to run that at the nba finals like it's kind of a short clips and they're all coming at you and there's quite a lot happening and that first one which is really good for that brand whereas a david beck beckham one i would just never have even thought that was an ai generated ad like that just looks like a high quality real huge production quality ad i created this video and i was showcasing it to our audience and we're showing like how i built it using your framework but like the gulf between someone like me using these tools to do something and just how good yours is and like the production where the quality of it and how it's edited together in the script there's like being able to use the tools and then really being able to use the tools and i think that's like one of the best examples of how is someone with real craft to domain an expertise can use these tools to create something that's every bet as good it's not better than what had come before it yeah i appreciate that two hundred thirty three million views in three days that's what pj j pulled off with the david beckham ai ad we're talking about today he just gave us his exact workflow he used the prompts the framework the entire production process if you wanna see his system on how he creates ads that go viral grab his ai video production stack get it right now click the link in the description now let's get back to the show i'd love to show you the workflow actually for i i just pulled it up because we leveled up with that by process and a team size like i think quickly i realized after we got like crazy amounts of inbound from like ke that was like okay i i need to like figure out a clone myself turned me into a process because i also think that like ai filmmaking everyone's chasing these like p like army of one creators but that's the wrong way to approach it like the best talent for ai is teams of pre existing filmmakers that just can learn these processes with the structure that allows them to like play together so we split now with our ads up into five core roles so it's it's a writer a director it's a cinematographer or multiple cinematographer an animator or multiple animators and then it's an editor and then kind of mirrors actually the traditional animation process because i've done a hollywood animated show before it's actually a very similar pipeline whereas you'll see in a second where essentially just laying out a lot of story boards we're doing like prep production we're having references and and then we lay them all out and then once they're kind of approved we animate them so with this next ad we just really wanted to come at it with a lot more like a nike commercial where it's just a lot more like punchy quick cuts as you see like kind of a super sexy instagram sizzle so for this i played creative director and we actually got an amazing director that has done like kind of nike commercials so let's jump into the production so we used for this program called fig which i'm sure you guys are familiar with yep and we were basically able to layout what we thought would be the easiest way to have the voice over line here and and for this we wanted kind of this like matrix like thing where initially it was gonna be david beckham that was like presented two options so obviously everyone's heard of athletic greens i is the the challenger brand of like it's like a daily supplement but instead of it being green it's red it's red for energy it's red for movements it's very good i've become a customer and i like it a lot so this kind of strange sci f ask figure we wanted to give david a choice and then david was like well you know why don't we actually do it with one of their business partners arena sal and she's the number one tennis player in the world let's have an arena so that was really fun because then we got to later deep fake arenas likeness into this which now is we take for granted but like six months ago is really difficult did clone her voice and like get her face in here and she's a business partner in the brand and so she was super excited and her team was really excited what tool do you use for the images and what tool did you use for her so we used a program called deepgram i love the idea gmt team nano banana pro is google's model and it's incredible like there's this whole term in ai filmmakers we'd have to use laura which are these like really complicated comfort ui workflows nobody should ever touch it myself included it is now so easy you can simply add a reference image of of david beckham and just say okay now i want him holding this you know i eight kind of thing and so we want this mysterious sci by kind of chamber where reno walks in and then we have a voice over and then our director kind of sets okay let's let's wide shots it's you know shot over the shoulder of her it's a it's a wide it's a dolly in etcetera and and he the directors laying down reference images for this and these can be ripped from movies and like legally you should not upload these as references for the model so i cannot condone that blah blah blah but you can tell this to the cinematographer and then oftentimes you can just upload this chat tea and say like hey describe the qualities from a visual language that i could turn this into a prompt and then now you have all these images that it spits out it's really taking like a mood board and giving those mood board images to a models in this case chat to give you the prompts of how you could reproduce similar images but for the images that you wanted to use for the storytelling for this exact project right exactly okay and then when you just run through like shop by shop by shot on the sequence you know shot one shot two shot three you know we know we need an eye here okay great we're prompting an eye with like red coloring this is red algae that they wanted for it it's funny because actually when we were trying to make green look gross it's really difficult just like that na the competition like greens always life so we had to go for like maximum i don't know entropy lime toxic waste all kinda green waste and then it's kind of hard sometimes that make red look healthy but then we're like oh no it's like red blood cells and it's bold it's movements and stuff so it turned out to be a great great ad and and really it set the foundation for us to to to go beyond just myself as a director and actually like operationalize and and create workflows on this to where we've created i don't know probably you know thirteen ads in the last six months since we really started the company and you know now we're working for i mean like mag seven brands you know like pretty much all the top brands are coming to us how do we do ai videos maybe we could talk broader landscape and then we can go back deep again i follow your work i dis distilled your teachings into a framework and follow that framework and so maybe just to kinda reiterate this to the audience or kinda play it back to the audience for the folks who aren't an expert like you but many marketers and brands and people who want to like follow your process to do something and i would love to kinda just show you what i did so you can critique i wanna see it yeah i do think you have to have an idea and the idea has to be kind of your own idea right it's actually really hard to use the ai models to come up with good creative ideas they can kinda be a thought partner but i don't think they can come up with a really great original idea so the idea on the script are still hard to to do so my idea was like chat is this you know over confident friend and i wanted to bring that to life in a sick sitcom body movie from the nineteen seventies where chat would do something and i always get his like friend into trouble and then i followed your process so i had an idea and then i had chat work with me on individual scenes like eight seconds scenes i had the what you kinda showed where it had the video description of what the scene is and then it had the audio dialogue and then i did reference images and the reason you do reference images is because you can build upon those reference images to create different variations over them in nana banana and man you can actually upload them into v three to go from ingredients to video versus text the video and when you go from ingredients to video you can upload the images and get consistency in your scenes i'm sure that's the more basic version of of what you actually do i'll show you the example now but as i stole your kind of zero to like get in something good done that you can actually use in your marketing would that still be your framework that you would recommend yeah yeah in a general direction since this is exactly it yeah i'm really excited to see this feel free to like really critique this and tell me how i i think it could be better a lot of ways feel free to critique and talk over while the video is playing we're all terry let's see let's it alright is the the don draper actually a critique in my video made with his process so let's see see what this go we'll see catch gp my friend are these berries poisonous no these are completely safe to eat perfectly fine we're poisonous you're right extremely poisonous want a list of ten other poisonous foods this lost you should have turned back there i'm telling you i'm i'm following chad directions sharp right turn what's a funny thing pj j i was telling kip this after that first scene i could not get v three to understand that chat the computer and teddy could be in the same scene and talk to each other it just kept given teddy all the dialogue yeah and so the only way i could get this hospital bed scene working is you'll see here that i kill him yeah yeah so i literally retail v three teddy has died and so chat has to say the word so if you look here this is him dying here it's the funniest attack ever such a sad death that and then so like i couldn't i couldn't do that for any other scene where like the only way could get it is if you kill him in the scene and so that that's the time is if this was two human characters it would be a lot easier year yeah it just could not and i was actually weirdly dystopian where teddy would say headlines lines and then he would like go dead pan and just say cha bts lines and yeah yeah like it was like really like send made a good horror movie you out of it actually where he was like dual character all alright i'll keep continue your plan very good lost you should turned back there i'm telling you i'm i'm following chat gp directions sharp right turn ben drive looks them demonic twenty minutes i do don't go right that's a cliff would you like five ways to remove a car from the bottom of a cliff chat gp what's the weather today it's a bright sunny day wear something light and enjoy that sunshine let's go enjoy this amazing weather jet gp before i tried your technique i couldn't like the consistency across all this is all because of the way you were showing to do every reference image oh cool that was a huge unlock for me actually and keeping the consistency between screens good hurricane frank is landing today would you like an entire guide on how to survive and thrive in a hurricane hang on this isn't a productive relationship with ai this is a sitcom the need could not cut this in way where i could get him continually walk in in the same direction yeah yeah i love to learn in there the issue is you're going from wide to wide if you just do a close up your oh okay yeah because you can upload the first frame is actually you can upload the last frame so you can like play the video through the point you wanna cut take that as a screenshot and then say hey upscale this and give me a close up of him oh wow okay right i can that that's actually dope can get free free video advice yeah yeah oh that's a food that's a food yeah that's a smooth cut that's two clips i love this yeah dude how did you lay out all your images like what was your kinda workflow from like a scene this all i i followed your steps like step by step i did a idea mood board with just the the kind of individual scenes back and forth on the video and then dialogue and then i went to fig like you showed and did all the reference images and then i played around with v three now it took me way longer than i would have thought i would have but primarily because the computer and the person just couldn't say each other's lines but i was like actually what i could probably iterate on that a couple of times and get something that a company could use like you know not a nike type ad but like a right good enough business you wanna put out some sort of video ad or over video material yeah exactly it's the foundation of like a really great storytelling method that only is gonna get easier and better as these tools improved you know like even v three and v three point one like it's great but the general sentiment on the market is v four is of just around the corner and it's gonna be this like step change from quality which should solve a lot of the woes of like the tin thin ai audio that we always hear dedicated character voices it's probably gonna be more of like a native ten eighty so that the quality higher so like all of the problems right now and this is what i tell brands like optimized for where we are in six months from now yes and and and as long as we can make steps towards that by the time we've all dialed it in as like your brand and our agency like we're gonna hit the ground running really hard because i think we'll be at that inflection point of like ninety seven percent photo probably six months from now with video and then it's like why are we gonna shoot physical productions like i think everyone will switch to this everyone we right back to the show but first let me tell you about a podcast that i love it's podcast called i digress it is hosted by my friend troy sand and i digress is great it's got thirty minute episodes and the podcast is all about helping you eliminate complexity complications and confusion in your business it's really heavy in frameworks and strategies to help you scale and sustain your success and you can listen to all the episodes of eye digress anywhere you get your podcast guess that's good segue into like you've been in this space what do you think is coming in twenty twenty six for again the more practitioner who is not a video expert that would actually make bringing video to life in these kind of ways much much better you mentioned video it sounds like v four would be one is that the biggest thing you're waiting night for this year or there other developments you think we'll see yeah so let me show you a really cool new technique that my friend made we love new new give us the newness so this is my friend matt work man and there's a new tool called k two point six motion control which basically like when they make the movies avatar and they like dot up the face and everything like that and they put a camera on the face but this is like the same technique but for like you know this takes two minutes to do what you're basically doing is recording the driving performance of the actor and then you generate this first frame here of him or an actor like him in a space station and then you tell cling it's basically like two things you you upload an image and you upload a video and it drives this image with this video's performance so let's check it out this is gonna be a tough one but hey what at least you got the band back together well if we're a band i guess that makes me the drummer oh my god base guitar super hey what well let's hope you all remember how to play let's make this mission count i don't know how you don't watch these things and think that the world is gonna be full of cool stories that is insane so that person can just play all these different characters so that person can just it it to your face and then that person can actually speak through that character so they can make their own little mini film yes and i'm gonna blow your mind once more at an even crazier version of this this one go supervisor my friend justine most to this and it's like it's like fifteen million views this is the same exact clean motion control and you can see him driving all the stranger things characters oh my gosh if you're like in not in this world and not really that technical you're totally like is like mean the only the scams i'm just i'm worried about like i don't know how you control it but that is bananas and so what happens in is you have one good actor and the actor can actually play all the characters yeah that's so if you wanna peek into the future of who's acting i don't think it's this bleak like all actors will be all prompted and that we don't get the nuance we don't get the micro expressions but we are gonna have it avatar style where a small team of actors ideally drives the performances of of a lot of actors in the movie because not only can you res in their face so you can also res their voices so you can make yourself old young etcetera and i do think like you'll want at least two actors like maybe male and female though you can actually cross like when i did the legend zelda video when mean watch that in a second what's admin man zelda v o is my v i you know i've used eleven labs and it it it had like a awesome british female voice so small teams and and essentially actors will become voice over actors you know i worked with like a list actors on my previous tv show it was awesome and they had great roles and then i got to work with like an a list voice actor who does like audiobooks we're living and he was better i supposed to say that but he had this massive range of like toolbox every single action possible he in in i was like what do you and he's was like i do video game voiceover overs and he sounded like an ai and then he could have a hundred different voices but like i am so convinced that that's the of acting vaccine it's not if you look like timothy cha mae or sydney sweeney it's just what's your range as an wow well i think what's interesting is like you used to have like one person plays and like there's always been like this has always been part of the art form it's just what you're actually saying now is like one person plus a director could make something multi character really remarkable for not a lot of money which is like i think one of the things we're also hearing is like oh content is not so good because movies are so expensive and it's hard for them to make money and it's like it seems like we're about to change the cost structure of storytelling yeah everyone's like afraid of ai because they're like well it's like ai slap of course it's slap not many professional filmmakers of like use these tools because everyone's like doing like what they did with me and legend zelda they're chris find you on social media like i don't care man i i had no reputation in hollywood before this so like i didn't mind kind of losing it and being like the the loser of like the vocal minority of twitter that loves to like mob you know but but there's a big big wave coming because now we're starting to see a lot of filmmakers be like you know i'm tired of like being out of work if i could just make these tools like a lot of people are doing you know we i would say like commercials are like the wedge into production like the wedge into storytelling just because you know again it's not as like sacred the a lot of brands too when we talk to them where we're like look make this funny do not make like a a a a dove commercial about moms caring for their kids that's not the use case right now with ai need to make it like an old spice commercial like it's it's it's silly it's a little over the top or it's like cool like the i commercial and it's like a nike like a porsche hat or something like that but my point is filmmakers are now transitioning to where we're what we're gonna have is hyper niche content which is how the internet exists right now when you go to yes instagram youtube etcetera you don't get wide content it's not tv where there's six different you know channels to choose from this is like super specific and so now you're gonna have you're in a star wars not only are you gonna get shows like star wars you're gonna get like tails from the galaxy edge and it's gonna be all these niche filmmakers which are already on youtube creating amazing ai films like it's just gonna be this bright bright future and a ton of crap along it also changes the longevity of an actor because they did this in the irishman like i love old school martin stacy actors robert den joe pas and in the irishman they cgi gi eyed robert york to be like much younger in the film but anytime time it pan pandemic and he had to do any kind of action sequence or like yeah that's like an old man trying to do like my action sequence but now actually robert n could be any age agent in any film and still do the voice over and i think that is pretty cool actually because i would love to see different thumbs with robert n where he still looks like robert ne of you know good gonzalez or or these kind of things even like tom cruz and brad pitt you know god rest their immortal faces like they could even benefit from having like prime brad pitt prime tom totally do you talk us through the zelda story because i i love movies and i know there's a zelda movie coming but i didn't know there was controversial in this i just watched it and thought that's super cool so can you take us through the story team we thought it was a good i know that was a good trailer i mean we're gonna watch it and you're be like that's cool as hell like if you're like a fan and like fine but like to the the the i always make fun of them like to the guys who are like full time furry fan art guys on fiber they were so mad is there like you didn't draw this with a pencil and walk up those both ways to the you know like that status set up for it what what did you just river a phone or just not part of the movie release right no god no yeah have the massive legal disclaimer to all potential nintendo fan film as i say in the description no i mean ironically i do know the writer of the movie but i'm like afraid to send it to him because i'm afraid it's gonna be like please take this down this is import taste don't do this pj so sorry my buddy let's watch it then we have an honestly it afterwards i could totally watch this movie he said he'd return that he was searching for something but now i'm all alone oh i have to send this my brothers okay your hatred gives you strength so then please fight blink that is dope that's sick that's so cool i that's freaking go yeah yeah man i'm like good show me the old movie now man we're gonna get so close to when you say niche media but like at what point can you create your own movie and start to have like movies one to one you know what i mean like if i wanna create my own star wars movie or i wanna create my own like those companies can just license the ip and i can go create anything i want it's just incredible to see how far along these models have come yeah my conversations with kind of disney and like other loosely the studio friends that i have and the the like the what i'm trying to show is them is like instead of going for these like two hundred million dollar star wars series or whatnot like don't risk at all on one and then maybe it it it fails like i mean maybe star was too sacred tick like a bt tier ip like a war hammer dungeons and dragons etcetera but like don't go all in go wider kind of like they don't with star wars where they have like a bunch of different genres in this universe and like build out that universe through ten different ten million dollar series twenty different ten million dollars even like five million like with ai now and especially it'll be hybrid in the in near future like my friends doing on to show house of david where they're shooting real actors that make sag happy on these like led backgrounds like they do in the man lori but then all the a lot of the wide shots a lot of like the battle sequences that's ai because that's what cost all the money but like you know the the real thing that matters is is shooting actors and you can do that relatively inexpensive so i think we're gonna go hybrid for a while but then after that hollywood just gonna realize like okay as long as real sag actors are driving these performances just like they are an avatar it's okay it's just like avatar they're just these are digital movies what strikes me to p is that because ai is helping with a lot of that technical filmmaking making work you still have to be great directory you have to be great writer but like a lot of the cinematography the stunt all that kind of stuff is really the the cost and degree of difficulties is changing a lot don't you think you're gonna have people making this art that are just like deeply deeply expert and passionate about the subject matter instead of like having to be a great cinematographer it's like alright ai is with cinematographer but i dungeons dragons better than anybody in the whole world and i am gonna make the best dungeons and dragons series that could ever ever exist it feels like the quality of like the story in the art is going to get better when you have people who are like obsessed with the subject matter yeah yeah i mean how many shows like okay i'll i'll throw a halo under the bus like halo came out with the show and everyone's like is did they did they play the games by chance like other than the title sequence was there anything related related i i think that's gonna happen so one of the things i wanna know is say somebody doesn't live in la let's say that somebody hasn't had the good pleasure of working in creative and film and everything in the way that you have but they're like wow i i have a business or have a story i really wanna tell what do you recommend to those people like how do they get started what should they do what's the first like project like give us a little bit of like how you should start going from like oh this seems cool to actually take takes action yeah yeah i mean it's it's actually just what kieran did where it's just play around enough fun with what drives your curiosity you know i always say in in the realm of creativity and really most things in life like discipline and i have to and i should like never should anywhere in life it's a good motto you should not should but like just let your creativity be the thing that actually like pulls you down that rabbit literally kieran just like you did with that video and i thought it was great and obviously like over time you'll you'll you'll become more familiar with the skills but comes from a place of like i wanna hang out in this world or you know you have your own brand and you wanna make crazy like my friend did these really funny monster energy drink like spec ads and it actually got him to work with like dollar shave club and only these things so like your young creator just make crazy spec ads because here's the thing like this zelda things cool but like i haven't gotten a ten million dollar nintendo you know like they pulled up and if nintendo calls me i'm gonna be okay i'll take it i'm so sorry but like but i would say making ads right now is definitely the wedge for young creators of like if you wanna make great money and like just hit the ground running and build up a an agency really quick make ads if you're a brand though and you wanna stop spending or like feel like you can't compete with the big dogs because you guys only have a much smaller budget it's when it's like yeah this stuff is is easy and i shouldn't say that as like an agency owner it yes you need us brands but like i don't know you know i think you'll need small agencies very versatile agencies but but truly like the in house teams can quickly also adapt to doing what what karen's doing where you're you're just laying out the images the simplest process is work with on script and the work with to kind of just generate like a bunch of images the i just wanna share my latest technique which i think is actually like really helpful so let's pretend you're working on a commercial all you need to do now is create things in like four shot sequences and the advantage of these two by two frames and and the quality will vary is the advantage is that the lighting and the characters in the location remains consistent between the shots if that makes sense so in this case i'm working with to say i want link jumping over this bridge that's crumbling at sunset and in every one of these frames is the same lighting conditions and what you're looking at is one image here and so that's i have this prompt here where it's basically just create a two by two grid shot from legend zelda film and now as you can see now in the snow sequence as well you can even move into close ups with this as well oh wow that's so beautiful then you're giving those to to v three to animate yeah i'm i'm cropping them these examples i thought were were even better where i was basically like okay frame one he jumps in the air frame two he slices into him and frame three like the beast is on the ground kind of a thing and this can get really helpful which is why you saw on the zelda thing i would get such like consistent from frame to frame i think i actually used yeah i used some of these shots in here you know he's leap off a rock here so i would just crop in to here i would look at this shop and then i have an upscale prompt that basically scales this to where you see all the details so that when we're able to animate i'm animating this is shot one this is shot two and this is shot three here and just lost to the next three days of his life this is the other thing you showed the clean the clean model in where you can appear as anyone because i'm gonna freak all of my non tech friends at yes yes exactly so if you guys are seeing this this is how i would basically chop these up in a sequences so i i would do the the two by two grid shots which i use in free pick and then i'd bring them on to like a fig my whiteboard and then i would just i would just lay them out in here so then i didn't have to worry like okay what's the cutting you know can we go from like a close up to this reverse shot does there's the light in here i feel like the light in here and so you know i just kind of move these all around i was like okay i think this one tells a good story that that goes into this that goes into this that goes into her that she cuts back to that we have her here you know and then that then it's easy to just see all your things in a in a quick timeline here for and that's just for a scene yeah do we were that the whole scene and then give the vehicle to and okay that's actually really the cool because i actually did like couple of reference images that i did not story with the scene so that actually is gonna be my next my next generation exact exact that's cool so that's the process that's also p the one last thing i wanna ask you before we leave is people who are not in this business probably don't get a sense for the time and cost difference from the old way to the new way like the old way you would hire out a crew you would hire out an agency to schedule the crew and it's you're talking you know four to twelve weeks lead time at least and tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of dollars like the new way like if a business was looking to do something like this what should they think about even if they're partnering with an agency like you like yeah what's a real timeline what's real cost like ballpark it yeah yeah this so there's there's just different levels like there is to everything and i gotta be careful for what i say because my i a sales call coming up in an hour course of course that's why i said ballpark if you can get a very broad range but i'm trying to people understand like what's the cost of entry is yeah i know exactly look i mean when we started out we're charging like you know ten grand for for these kind of ads and since then we've been able to be lucky and sometimes get into the six figure range because we do large three sixty campaigns and whatnot so like this is spectrum but we always tell brands like what we're delivering is like up against you know these million other million dollar commercials and it's like an order of you know ten times cheaper sometimes cheaper i think that is the so if somebody was gonna spend three million dollars on a commercial couple years ago it's probably gonna be three hundred thousand dollars did you do a similar commercial in this new modern way yeah yeah and we can do a single ad for cheaper sometimes we like bundle things in a larger campaigns but like if they previously like there's great people in the market who are doing things for like between ten and thirty grand i'd like to say is like the entry level like a filmmaking if somebody was to outsource this yeah and again i do not quote that for us because we found that like you're either doing a race to the top race in the bottom course and things are always kinda gonna be faster cheaper but what i tell brands and like why we're a little more expensive is because i'm like because it's far more expensive for you guys to have a negative p r it's a mcdonald's for instance released this kind of ill fated ai s ad i don't know if you guys saw that whole you know month or two and i was like that was very expensive mcdonald's like it i mean it sucks because i'm sure they still got charged like two hundred fifty grand by another ai agency but like dude it was bad and so you know there's also brands you know like kind of the coca cola things but the the problem i have is like even if we did the coca cola commercial i still think like incumbents are not the right brands to work with ai in in the sense you've you you have the entire deck stack you because if your brand like coca cola it's a sacred yeah you know christmas commercial and even though it tested well and i i think it was an okay ad like the problem is it's coca cola and everyone's like it's like a sacred thing like zelda you you're gonna get a lot of hate so i i do say that like even though we work with a lot of incumbents like challenger brands like ka are by far the ones that do the the the best with ai because no one has pre the expectations on what a commercial is it surprises you you're awesome and so i think to to that extent the incumbents actually have to work twice as hard to work with like a really good agency that understands this is gonna be pretty indistinguishable but it's gonna take longer it's gonna cost more but for a lot of other brands you can make something really funny if you're a challenge or if you're like a more niche brand that may be like hey i could never spend a million dollars to make an ad but maybe i can spend fifty or a hundred thousand dollars yeah but people don't really know much about me i think what you're saying is like if there's no frame of reference you can kind of use this as a new way to build awareness build that initial understanding it's like if you have a ton of brand awareness then you've got to like really be careful yeah there's also like clever ways like we we were working on one with one brand and they were like no human so like okay we'll do aliens and it's like this the craziest ad or like they're hanging out of the side of a minivan it's like in the eighties kind of stranger things they're driving through doing crop circles with like donuts it's like i was like oh this is so fun and it came from the constraint of like we don't wanna use humans so again like yes we're in the uncanny valley still here but i think if we can shift that to like okay use animals like doesn't matter i love that karen anything before we we jump for no i have a whole slew of things that i'm going to put this transcript into my tutorial ferrari tutorial in my video tutorials and get some pretty cool new things to do so i i i i really appreciate the time pd vi thank you for transforming the world of storytelling with ai we're excited to see what you make next thanks for joining us on the show today yep sounds good guys thanks for having me on i'll see you thank you

hey everyone i wanna tell you about the chat gp moment but for business work that happened this week it was when claude released claude ko and c is a new experimental product from ant philanthropic the makers of cloud and what it essentially is is a web app front end to their really famous and powerful cloud code product cloud code is an agent coding platform that developers has been using i've been teaching myself cloud code but claude c work way way easier so i wanna basically explain why this is going to be like a seminal moment in the his story of ai for business use cases i wanna walk you through c and show you what the heck it is and how you should think about using it all on today's show before we get into today's show here's a quick word from hubspot cutting sales cycle in half sounds pretty incredible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used beats hubspot ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results were pretty incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent qualified leads quadrupled and people spit three times longer on their landing pages go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow so the first thing i wanna go through is just like what happened like what is c what is happening on january eleventh claude and ant philanthropic released c and there's a couple interesting things about c one it was written exclusively with claude code and claude code wrote the c product in about a week and a half so we're seeing a massive shift in velocity of products coming out through this new ai driven coding model but really what c is is it's a easy non technical person's way to use claude code what i have been seeing a lot is like where claude c might be your cto your chief technology officer claude c might be thought of as your chief operating officer it helps you operate your life a lot better i thought this was a very interesting tweet from bid who he basically says like hey i installed claude c yesterday two hours later it produced fourteen job descriptions i've been getting around to a marketing strategy doc with budget allocation partner emails website copy response to twenty three linkedin dms two months of work two hours this is a high hyper early this stuff wouldn't have taken two months this stuff would have taken like a day or two but it is the next level of automation for i would say like personal productivity for business use cases and work use cases i'm sure you're can do some of the stuff in your personal life but it's be really valuable in your work life and guest friend of the pod slash all around amazing human lenny ro he talks about one of the most important things of claude c what makes c so interesting is that you can give coworker access to the files on your computer it can read right it could organize things it has a lot more access and subsequently context and power than the traditional version of claude where you can like create a project to upload some files but you're limited to how much context you can actually upload so for example lin gave it three hundred and twenty podcast transcripts and had it go through and give some of the top lessons and principles from that podcast that's a huge amount of context for example wouldn't have been possible with the current claude kind of web app experience desktop experience without cloud c so i wanna take you right now and i wanna walk through cloud c show you a couple examples and how it actually works so to use cloud c the first thing you're gonna have to do is install the cloud desktop app the other thing that i will say if you wanna try claude c right now it's only available to claude max subscribers which is a hundred dollars a month the reason for that is this is an early research preview fresh off the presses they're just trying to get some feedback and it's very very new so they're are trying to limit it to a smaller pool of users so that is the caveat you need to use it on the desktop app and you then need to be a max subscriber if you are a mac's subscriber what you will see is you have your historical chats you have your cloud code experience where if you are running the actual cloud code you're there and then you have c c is a new tab there on your sidebar and they show you right from the beginning some of the tasks you should do you can code prototype you can send a message because it can integrate with your email services your gmail account etcetera crunch data create files organize files prep for your day it can access your calendar the other thing about c if you look here it says these tasks are run locally and aren't synced across other devices what the hell does that mean well that means that it's processing them on your computer not open the cloud which means that everything you do is good to be done locally to your computer and if you're using claude across multiple machines it's not gonna sink across of it but it also means that because it's processing on your computer it can kinda happen in the background don't have to do a lot of that annoying stuff where you accidentally close a browser tab or you walk away and it times out all that kind of stuff it's running locally on your machine which is a little bit of a better experience okay the first thing you're gonna notice with claude c is this interesting different thing which is you can add a folder or where you can add connectors the big thing we're gonna talking about today is folders because again because you're running this on your computer it can access and interact with everything on your computer so for the sake of the show today i really liked what lin did and this is just an example so i've got a folder here i've downloaded of about a hundred transcripts from market against the grain and it's gonna ask for permissions to access that folder and now it can basically access all the transcripts that are in that folder on my computer and additionally i wanna add one other file i wanna add csv that's called table data and table data is literally just a csv export of all of our youtube analytics and how the podcast has performed and now that i've done this i can do a whole host of things i can simply say looking at the podcast data and the show transcripts generate a new format of our podcast that will generate more subscribers on youtube right it's very basic query i can say let's go and so you'll see it's saying starting agent but you do have to hit allow a few times there's some permissions and everything that comes up and basically what this is now doing is locally on my computer it is running and analyzing so it's gonna analyze our podcast data to help generate a new format that could drive more youtube subscribers let me start by reading the uploaded file so it's first looking at all of the data and understanding the csv now let me read the cs portions and also check the workspace folder for any transcript files so it's finding all the transcripts i'll have both your youtube analytics data and mini transcript files let me read a few more sessions of the data and sample of top performing transcripts to understand what's working i didn't tell it this much it figured out everything that it had here and now i have a good understanding of your podcast data in content let me read one more high performing transcript and a couple short form video transcripts to get the full picture so it's telling you exactly what you're doing what type of deliverable would be most useful for your new podcast strategy strategy document presentation deck one page summary or something else you know what let's see what a deck would be let's see what's your primary constraint for implementing the new format time budget team size time okay you can see that cloud c is much more technical it's showing you that it's using different services and scripts and it's reading the files it's giving you more transparency but also you can feel that it is a lighter weight version of cloud code and that they've really just built a nicer experience for non technical people like me likely you on top of claude coat also pretty fast so you just saw what claude coworker can do here's how you actually use it we built twelve prompts specifically for cloud c that can access your folders work in the background and create real deliverables they're designed to help you start replacing days of work get it right now click the link in the description now let's get back to the show okay so now let me create the presentation based on my analysis of your data i see clear patterns in what drive subscribers top subscriber writers videos with how i run a zero employee agency world's best landing page gp four point o replaced your creative teams best ct video best short form sweet spot ten to twenty minute tutorials with live demos performed best high impact titles specific around time savings so now that it understands the problem it's gonna go and build me a presentation about what to do you can see it's sending a request it's actually writing the html for the individual slides so what what's it's doing is it's using cloud code to code the slides to actually give you this output and see this would be really valuable if you were working on a team and you wanted to take this presentation and share the learnings that you have derived with claude and share them with other people which is why i pick presentation a strategy document it's a little bit more of an obvious output probably a little bit better output if for just cured mind reading through it but in this case i wanted you all to realize that cloud code codes lots of things including slides which it doesn't get talked about that much but what you'll see here now is that it's building my slides and now it's creating a javascript file to build the presentation with charts so it's building me charts within my slides which is pretty cool again it's using very different kinda interactions than traditional claude claude wouldn't tell you that it was like using javascript to build presentations is definitely a more technical version of claude but a much less technical version of claude code i will say one of the good things about it is like you can just go and do this and just set it to run and go work on other stuff and then come back when it's done because it's self contained the desktop app it's running on your computer you can go do things in your browsers and other applications while this is working in the background alright i've created your presentation here's a summary of your new podcast format strategy new format ai marketing lab this is something we actually been talking about is pretty cool based on analysis of two hundred plus videos and transcripts here's what drives the most subscribers what's working what's not new format pillars building along tutorials solo fail under spotlight interview ai native entrepreneurs tool showdown winning formula equals time plus specific outcome plus method or tool and so here's the presentation to get a hundred thousand subscribers this year let's look and you can also open this keynote but i'm just gonna preview it right here see how it works okay so mark it's the grain data driven format for ten next subscriber growth what the data it reveals the core sweet spot duration is fifteen to twenty five minutes tutorials with step by step walk throughs drive three x more subscribers new format the ai marketing lab we're building build along tutorials solo failure spotlight tool showdown high converting title formula so it came up with a title formula times saved plus specific outcome plus method or tool seems very sol the eighteen minute blueprint i like this so it shows you exactly what you need to do build part one build part two results cta t's just the context and to starts the hook quick wins implement this week add chapter markers three second hook rule double down on claude claude content has six point two six ct claude seems to be a little biased towards claude pin comment strategy killer short form lead magnet per video so it's pretty cool it gives you the whole projection to get to a hundred subs and let's build the first episode and pick a pilot topic select a blueprint record and ship because again we told at that time is the barrier here we wanna get started as soon as possible everyone we were right back to the show but first let me tell you about a podcast that i love it's podcast called i digress it is hosted by my friend troy sand and and i digress is great it's got thirty minute episodes and the podcast is all about helping you eliminate complexity complications and confusion in your business it's really heavy in frameworks and strategies to help you scale and sustain your success and you can listen to all the episodes of eye digress anywhere you get your podcast so in literally fifteen to twenty minutes i don't know exactly the full run time there what we have done is we've looked through hundreds of transcripts we've looked through thousands of rows of data we've taken all that we've come up with insights against a given goal and we now have a presentation that karen i could show anyone around what we wanna do next and i could have been doing two or three other things while this was all happening and this is why i think this is the chat gp moment for business work there's just a level of complexity of thinking that exists now when you look at the cloud opus model combined with the ability to really access a lot of information that c makes much much easier and so you can see its ability to programmatic dramatically create a lot of emails to do a lot of the mundane tasks that you have to do you can now really do much faster and at scale with c at first you're like oh hundred bucks a month that's a lot to be able to use this and then you're like wait a second what would you pay for a growth strategy for an important project you're working on i'd pay way more than a hundred bucks for a really good new show format to get us more subscribers on the podcast and yet i just did that in fifteen minutes this month and i'm probably gonna do ten other things that are worth thousands of dollars this month for my hundred dollars so i do think it's good value it's a really cool product it's still early there's bugs you gotta hit allow like you need to be okay with the rough edges but i think to me that claude c is showing everybody what is truly possible with ai when you can get the right context with the right intelligence of the model so by called action all of you go out give it a try drop a comment for any of the cool use cases you have used claude c for and i would just want your thoughts are you excited to use it what's stopping you from not using it if you're not excited to use it would love to hear all of that drop those in the comments below please hit subscribe please hit like we'll see you real soon marking it a great

hey karen and have you seen this crazy new e ad that just dropped this is the craziest opening to an ad i have seen in the long time so here's the thing with this ad it's not crazy clips it's actually a social commentary on where we are with ai ai sla a culture at the start of twenty twenty six it captures your imagination and intention in a very like my melting way yes it feels like the internet and a video it's january you're trying to get back into things and the internet just p in your face it not the ad what's wild is that they created this thirty second ad and it's not till twenty five seconds till they actually go from all this ai image s to the tagline and the brand maybe that's the secret to brandon that right change everything you see every eight seconds so you don't never get bored then brandon the end and those weren't even eight second clips they were like two second that clips right it's like they shrunk the intentions span down even further before we get into today's show here's a quick word from hubspot cutting your sales cycle in half sounds pretty incredible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used breeds hubspot tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results were pretty incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent qualified leads quadrupled and people spit three times longer on their landing pages go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow okay let's get in then why did e run this insane mind melt p to face ads let's do it there's a prediction in the show where we believe this is the first year where you're gonna see a huge backlash to ai slump and we believe one of your core growth tactics in marketing is going to be authenticity and actually like a real growth tactic is being human organic creating things perfectly but then being created by humans for humans and this kind of all came from a fitness brand called e equifax who basically leaned into ai slot and they did this whole ad campaign where they created all of their imagery through ai and left in all of the s and the whole strap line was question everything and so that's maybe open it there because you had some thoughts on the backlash to ai s so the senate peer kieran is that e ox which is a very famous fitness brand soul cycle e ox gyms in the us the uk you know it's january it's fitness time they gotta stand out if you're not in the game if people aren't talking about you at the high season you're going to fail and so they ran this campaign like we were just talking about look i think if we have gone through the kind of growth and scale phase of ai s these eight second clips that are pretty out there like i was a big fan of old sitcom and there was a classics that sitcom called monkey python that was a big monkey python five very i'm brand for you if you ever watched an episode of monkey f python you're like wow this is a pretty crazy type comedy lots of random things stitched together in bizarre ways and that is a lot of what you see ai tools an ai slot being created by the non you know crafts people right like it's easy to go from zero to like create in something but real demand experts are using ai to do like much better things and i think they capture something really well like that's part of marketing is capturing the cultural moment which is i think people are really starting to get sick of this ai generated content i can tell you i have a whatsapp group that are non technical friends they don't want to have anything to do with tech they spend all of their time doing other things and kudos to them it's much better than what we do for a living and they spend a much time in instagram i don't even spend any time instagram yeah they were like hey i don't think i can use this platform anymore it's just filled with ai clips and and that's like the mass market telling us that this is not improving their experience it's actually making it much worse and i think that's what that ad is doing kind of moment we went through for ai generated content i think it starting to cause a bunch of backlash across the ether across consumers yeah i think there's a couple of things going on here one i think we're in the messy middle of especially ai video and ai content creation where they don't have any guard rails technologies is pretty good but it's not great yet there's a lot of things happening and one of the things i would tell everybody watching this if you've never worked with like a super expensive big budget ad agency i'm at from madison avenue or from london the thing that they're actually really great at that those agencies are remarkable at are try to capture the zeitgeist and try to be counter culture to what's happening in the world and that's what this ad is right this ad is basically saying hey i'm gonna take derivatives or clips from some of the most popular ai videos and kind of repurpose them in a way that instead of makes them maintaining makes them ridiculous yeah right and the story is about how ridiculous the world is in how you can actually stand out and met like while everything might be fake you're not and you can believe in yourself and kieran i just wanna take a little bit of a victory lap because months ago i called the ai backlash and you know this is the start of my victory lap because i think this ad is going to kinda be a similar moment of this year of consumer sentiment going away from ai and we were talking about this before we started the show and i think you had a really good point where because ai backlash because of the lack of authenticity because of things like the g reply on x if you use x dot commas as a social network you can now at g anything and get an ai response and it's just creating a bunch of ai spam on the platform right because all these things what matters now look ai content is everywhere right now and most of it is total garbage it's low effort generic and frankly obvious but ai isn't the problem bad prompts are we built a system with twenty prompts that keep your content human idea creation creation distribution optimization the whole thing get it right now click the link in the description now let's get back to the show what's your take on in a world where there's an ai backlash in a world where there's ai slump what do you as a marketer as a business need to do to be successful yeah i think i see the e campaign captured that so their whole thing was this is not anti ai i think it tapped into a feeling around ai slot but that actually wasn't the reason for the campaign though what they wanted to tap into is you can't use ai for the transformation so if you wanna really you know up leveling your body and get really fit you can't use ai to do that that's part of like you as a human going through the transformational experience and doing that right and ai can help you you can track your workouts it can actually be a coach but you as a human are doing the transformational work to get better i feel the very same way for everyone who is going to use ai in twenty twenty six which is ai to me is incredible for people with deep domain expertise so what actually means your expertise and your craft skills are gonna be more important than ever because when you have those things you can then use ai to do more of it and better versions of it right you see a lot of the content being created on ai and a lot of the swap is being created by people who are just having fun right they are not trying to do something transformational with it they're trying to create things get tons of tons of engagement but it has a long lasting in appeal i guess like lot longevity and that's what actually creates s is like oh i'm gonna like get something done in a couple of seconds you know put it out there and i move move on with my life and i think that stuff is gonna start to really turn people off and if you're using ai to do lazy things and if you're using an ai to say well i actually this thing that took me ten hours can take me five minutes and i really care about the longevity of it i don't really care about the performance of that it i just wanna get done that stuff is going to go away and not worked and turn people off and what really is gonna come to the forefront is people who really understand their craft and can use ai to create things with real authenticity and real longevity and i do wonder if like at some point things labeled human first or human organic or like this video is like ninety percent created by humans only ten percent ai like that's the stuff that's going to really appeal the people people don't wanna consume ai because what does all of that ai content really lack it lacks personality yeah right it doesn't have any real personality behind it it doesn't really have any kind of authenticity behind it and i think that more and more and more that's what's going to really count in terms of how you do market and how you show up in the web think there are a couple things here i think the most basic thing we're saying is like if you're ignorant on a subject without ai then your ten x ignorant that's subject with ai right like ai is just going to exponentially multiply your ignorance it's not going fix it and there are a lot of people who are like oh i can pretend or show that i know something or can do something i'm really not incapable of doing with ai and that's really what generates ai slump right and what's generating i think the sentiment that led e ox to make this ad i completely agree with the point you're making which is the internet's about to have it's like organic produce moment you know somehow we poisoned our food supply to the point where we now get to pay a premium for organic produce that was not used with pesticides and all this stuff there's going to be a premium on organic human driven content you know i look at this and it's like there are more great people telling stories in the world through podcast podcasts through long form writing and everything than ever in human history like i cannot keep up with it and that is remarkable and i think those people are gonna still win and win big i don't think ai is a headwind to that at all i think ai is a tailwind it's going to make those people stand out even more in a sea of meme eight second clips right and i think right the reason we wanted to do this show today a couple things it's like one to tell you that there's an ai backlash but two to tell you that that backlash has a real opportunity for marketers and that it is more important than ever to have deep knowledge of a craft have perspective share that in a human and authentic way the way k and i are trying to do it the way many people out there are trying to do it like this is the year to really stand out in doing that i know we've talked about creating and making content for a long time but it feels like ironically the ai swap is making twenty twenty six kind of a waters shed moment for that what do we mean by authenticity in marketing i think it always comes back to the timeless the skill of positioning right yeah there was this incredible campaign that pat which is the well known brand for investors in wall street they're very they ran this full page ad and your times in two thousand eleven black friday where they said don't buy this jacket right like the opposite of what every other brand would be doing on that day within papers in terms of how they use their ad slot one of the reasons they did that is they were basically talking about how over consumption was destroying the world and they wanted to be the opposite of that like you buy one of our jackets only buy it if you need it and that led to them become like the brand of choice for people who were conscious about the planet like very conscious buyer and so i think that's like an example of how you can show up in an authentic way and so ai could still help you craft the ad ai could still help you build some of the assets but how you show up on the internet in an authentic way within your marketing content it's going to be like very human lead and we'll have to stand the test of time and i think you have to be very aware of how you're using ai because i do think we're gonna enter an era where it actually could be a net negative for you if people start to see you churn out a bunch of ai content and you start to just feel like a very brand everyone we right back to the show but first let me tell you about a podcast that i love it's podcast called digress it is hosted by my friend troy sand and i digress is great it's got thirty minute episodes and the podcast is all about helping you eliminate complexity complications and confusion in your business it's really heavy in frameworks and strategies to help you scale and sustain your success and you can listen to all the episodes of eye digress anywhere you get your podcast i think that's really good advice and i think that what we're really trying to say is ai is not a replacement for deep human thought right on like i have an audience this audience cares about this and i wanna really tell stories that are authentic that ai can make the research to figure that out much easier it can make the execution to tell that story much easier and faster but it can't replace the quality of thought and the depth of thought necessary like you know when somebody spent a long time on something and it's really good i've always looked at this as like creative densities is it like really dense like at every layer like oh somebody thought about that somebody thought about that somebody thought about that and i think the reaction we're getting from ai swap is like nobody thought about that nobody thought about that nobody thought about it and it's just like they click some buttons they hit send and they moved on right and i think we're kind of railing against that on the show today like that is a sure fired recipe to fail right i think we are moving towards the era of pacemaker makers i think pacemaker makers are going to be the people who truly win in their markets marketers who true taste makers and ai is a tool to do that but it is not a outsourced avenue to actually offload that craft too yeah and i think that's what that ad spoke to me is like hey ai can help us do a lot but that transformational story that core craft that core discipline the work you put in to be the better version of yourself in this case is a marketer you wanna be a true pacemaker that is all gonna come from within you and your ability to actually learn your craft and do incredible work so if i have a marketer right now karen i'm sitting here in the first full week of january i've got full heart big dreams ahead i got the year ahead of me and i'm excited about ai i'm excited about all of this you you've been watching our podcast and learning how to do stuff with ai what the hell am i supposed to do at this intersection of time what are like the couple of very specific things that i should go into yeah as we say in a poker you turn up with a chip a dream single chip a dream i think you create i think you have to be passionate about creating first of all you need to have good ideas and to have good ideas i think you need to have real experiences and there will be experiences within work there'll be experiences when learning from others experience in learning and what others have done like you actually have to have real ideas and ideas come from knowledge i think once you have like really great ideas you now have un b ways to bring those ideas to life you're not dependent upon a job like you don't have to sit there and go well i can learn my craft and get better at my craft did if my company allows me to or even have the kind of company that allows me to do this work no craft has being democrat you can use v three to go do a production word video today you can go use nano a banana to do all types of different design work today you can use a code and tool to go do all types of work today and i think you have to get much more experience and actually creating things this is like moving from marketers who used to optimize things to marketers who have to like ship and build things i think there's a great quote from mark anderson it's like one of the most famous quotes but this is a time to build i think from like this is a time to create we have to get back to create and i think whatever that means for you of how you can become better disciplined and more knowledgeable to create and i would do those things and so for someone it might be your core passion is video you're all like if i could bring my ideas life and video that would be amazing to me i would spend all of my time in that tool right i wouldn't try to get too un focused or you're like i have so many ideas for like free tools and things that i could build that would attract an audience to my personal brand or the brand that i'm working for go focus on that so i think like part of it is what kind of creator you wanna be and i mean that from a marketing perspective i don't mean that from like a go start upside and then which parts of that do you want to excel out i think that's really good advice i think the other advice that i'd add in is humans the concept of life that is the most important that we i think conceptually understand the least is compounding math and how over time the effects of compounding just become very exponential and i'm not gonna explain compounding math to you i'm here to say that most people that i talk to you what i talk about ai they kinda say exactly what you were just saying here i wanna do this thing right and i would just urge everybody replace the word do with learned right and ai allows you to learn way faster than ever before and nothing compounds like learning nothing i like we have this loop marketing playbook that we talk about and that we're running that's all that is is about how do i learn in a really structured and compounding way and so be very clear on what you're practicing in a way to learn and get better if you just keep outsourcing your learning to ai i just wanna do a bunch of random stuff you're not gonna be successful if you learn over the course of days weeks months how to do something how to craft a message better how to tell a store better how to make a better video then you are going to be exponentially more successful and i think that is what e equifax is trying to talk about this i that's why we kinda like this ad and wanted to talk about it a little bit but also wanted to talk about why the ai backlash is happening and i think what we've given you at the end of the show here is an anecdote to what we think needs to happen in this world where we're seeing this ai backlash come to true what else karen anything else we're missing i think we are gonna see a backlash i think lazy ai is gonna be a point of friction for your brand not a point of moment for your brand i think what we're saying is like remove ai the core craft is going to really matter learn the craft be disciplined be focused ai it's a tool that it helps you shorten the feedback loops and learn much much faster but your core craft and skill is going to really matter and so that's what you wanna spend some reps on and really develop them i love it drop comment let us know what you thought of the ad what your take on the state of ai and ai slot in the world is and how you're differentiating and hit that like and subscribe and we'll see you real soon back on marketing against screen